divadoc is offline divadoc Post #1  January 27,2009, 5:01am
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The following is a response I wrote to a pro-abortion argument in another forum.





Nowadays a "foetus"....aka a newborn infant....can live outside the womb at 22 weeks with assistance....and with medical technology advancing daily, that number gets smaller and smaller. Partial birth abortion/infanticide advocates would have it be okay to kill that baby....brutally, I might add....up until the day he/she is would be naturally born, full term.

Let me tell you about my "non viable bio mass" personal experience. Once upon a time there were two identical twin boys...let's call them Stephen (twin A) and Michael (twin B). Now Stephen and Michael had a problem with their placental blood supply called TTTS (twin-twin transfusion syndrome), which required frequent monitoring and intervention, from the time they were 17 weeks gestation. They were viewed quite often on ultrasound and had definite personalities! One was clearly more dominant than the other....(that would be Stephen). Their mom had amniocentesis done 25 times to remove the excess amniotic fluid which the babies were swimming in. Most babies swim away from the needle....but even at 19 or so weeks, Stephen actually reached for the needle and grabbed it as if to say "hey what's this in my space?" He was naturally very curious. Michael became gradually more submissive and reserved....and at 29 1/2 weeks, his heart stopped. An emergency C-section delivered Michael, already dead, and Stephen alive but very sick, with complications not only of the TTTS but also of prematurity and of his mom's antibodies rejecting the stillborn twin (and therefore Stephen too!)

Well, little Stevie fought for life in the NICU, with tubes everywhere as is the case with many preemies.....but gradually he grew and got better, and 6 1/2 weeks later he went home. Today he is not only a healthy 14 year old, but also very gifted intellectually, and with a deep spiritual insight as well as musical talent. Now, yes I am bragging on my son!! But my point is, had we not fought to save this gifted child, the world might have missed out on whatever big contribution he has to offer! Most likely he will grow up to do something very good and contribute greatly to society. Perhaps he will do something REALLY great that changes history!

If we had listened to certain doctors who suggested that we abort this "non viable bio mass", the world would never know whatever it is that he turns out to be! And my life would be a lot less joyful! But the real reason I'm telling this story is because it makes one think: at what point does life really begin? How do we decide, as humans, which lives are "worth" saving? Was Stephen any less human when he grabbed the amnio needle at 19 weeks, than he was when he took his first breath at 29 weeks? He was still the same child.....curious and investigating his world....as he is at age 14 years.

Yes, a woman should have control over her own body, no doubt. No one should force her to conceive a child without her permission....she should always have the right to say NO. However, once a living human is growing inside her, there is no longer one but now two (or more!) lives to consider! And a baby's life must always take precedence over a mother's choice. That's one of the sacrifices we make when we choose to be a mom. We make that choice when we willfuly engage in sex. Right to life trumps right to choose.
 
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mred111864 is offline mred111864 Post #2  February 13,2009, 6:40am
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i as a man and pro lifer ,agree with you 1 trillion percent. i feel if a girl or woman gets pregnant, and does not want the child it is best to bring it to life and place it up for adoption,or foster.
 
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samurai007 is offline samurai007 Post #3  February 15,2009, 11:50pm
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I'm not religious, so I turn to science and logic.





Most hospitals and people consider brain death to be the end of a person's life, because while medical science can keep a body alive indefinitely, there's no point if the brain is gone.





Therefore, I feel that's it's only right to be consistent, and say that the start of life occurs when the brain begins working, which happens during the 2nd trimester. Before that point, I feel it is merely a potential human life, not a separate, thinking person. While it should be respected, if the mother wants an abortion up until that point, I say let her. However, once the brain has started, I feel it is now a thinking individual, and it should not be killed except to save the life or serious health of the mother.
 
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divadoc is offline divadoc Post #4  February 17,2009, 6:32pm
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good point. The problem is, how do you define "when the brain begins working"? A developing embryo has brain waves at about 8 weeks. My son showed purposeful movement (reaching for the amnio needle) at 17 weeks. And when a baby is born, full term, their brains still continue to grow and develop.


The end of life issue is a slippery slope as well. Remember Terry Schaivo? Here was a woman considered by a few doctors, her estranged husband and his activist attorney to be in a persistent vegetative state. Yet I saw an internet video of Terry clearly saying "I want to live" when coaxed. As this woman was starved and dehydrated to death, she was given pain medication. Well, how could she feel pain if her brain wasn't at least partly functioning? She opened her eyes, turned her head and brightened when her mom entered the room. That case was a travesty, and a sad example of the depths this country has sunk to. No one would allow an animal to be treated that way, yet this happened to a human being, all because her existence was inconvenient to her husband who wanted to get on with his relationship with another woman. We have become a society where convenience overrides the basic right to life of all our citizens.
 
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JennJenn is offline JennJenn Post #5  February 18,2009, 6:59pm
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I believe that once the egg is fertilized by the sperm intentionally or not, it is a life. Conception is the point that life starts. If the doctor says, "You're pregnant." you have a life growing inside of you that is separate from you. Who gives us the right to abort what God has created? What about the baby's right to live?


Abortion and murder of helpless children is not a new idea. Check out Egypt's history concerning the Hebrew numbers. Check out the Nazi's list of paperwork of children who died because of birth defects, race, or mental defects. We are living in a society that has forgotten history. Humanity is being stripped away from us because it's a "choice." I think of all of the childless couples out there that have so much love that they can give to one of these unwanted children. I restate: Conception is the beginning of life, therefore to end it (outside of medical reasons for the mother,) is murder.
 
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SpeakTruth is offline SpeakTruth Post #6  March 15,2009, 1:13pm
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If, as I believe and the Christian faith teaches, human beings are made in the image of their Creator-God, it follows that neither men nor women have authority toterminate innocent human life at any stage of its development or decline. The tragedy of Roe v. Wade is that it turned on the Supreme Court's interpretation of the word "person" as set forth in the Fourteenth Amendment, i.e., ". . . nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." The Court held that the unborn are not "persons" for the purpose of constitutional protection.


But the Founders of our country placed great weight onrights granted byour Creator, even justifyingseparation from Englandas springing fromGod-given unalienable rights. And we all know this famous phrase from the Declaration: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"


A human being's right to life is endowed by our Creator, not granted by men.Do wedare nullify that God-given right to life? Obviously yes. And the likely reason is we have lost our fear of God. Perhaps we should pay closer heed to the bible verse on the wall of the warden's officein the movie, "The Shawashank Redemption?" It was this: "His Judgment Cometh, and thatRight Soon."
 
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divadoc is offline divadoc Post #7  March 15,2009, 3:35pm
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Amen, brother! And that's one of my favorite movies too!!





I totally agree with you....I think the problem lies in the fact that many people do not believe that life begins at conception, and therefore do not consider that growing infant to be a "person" with full rights of protection under the law. That's where medicine comes in! It is so encouraging that laws have been passed to protect unborn victims of violence. So some courts do acknowledge that a late term baby has the rights of personhood, and that makes late-term abortion reprehensible. The issue becomes clouded when you look at the first or even second trimester. But as I stated in my earlier post, with new technologies we are able to save babies as young as 22 weeks gestation, and that number will no doubt improve in the future. So where do we draw the line? To me, life begins at conception because at that point, nothing is added to the embryo; it just needs time to develop. A fertilized egg is already a genetically distinct person.
 
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angelofmerci is offline angelofmerci Post #8  June 2,2009, 10:30am
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This subject is a real touchy one for me as from what I have seen and heard from people who take the pro-life position is they always talk about teens and women getting the abortions. These people are quick to say that these teens or women should have had their babies and given them up for adoption if they did not want it.

First these people never mention the young girls or teens that find themselves pregnant because of incest, child molestation or rape. Not one of these people say that they will pay for the girl's medical bills, the delivery, the support of the baby until it is grown nor pay for the years of therapy that these girls are going to need to be able to live a normal life.

Second, these same people do not mention the young woman or older woman that finds themselves pregnant by rape. Again they offer no help or support in any way.

It never ceases to amaze me that these people can be so righteous but so uncaring at the same time. You can not have it one way without accepting the responsibility for the life you want to save.

Third, no man should ever have the right to tell a woman what she can or can not do in regard to her reproductive functions. If he wants that right then women should be able to tell him that he has to get a vasectomy when she feels she no longer wants more children.
 
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buffaloacademy is offline buffaloacademy Post #9  June 14,2009, 2:42pm
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Angel, you haven't met us.

If you have not heard us talk about incest, it's because that's private counseling talk.
We deal with it commonly. Same for rape, of any kind. We also do a lot of counseling for post abortion trauma.

Medical bills are normally paid by the new adoptive parents. If an unemployed single woman needs pregnancy medical care, and chooses to keep her child, the government has long given anyone who asks for it, medical coverage, and welfare afterwards. Socialized single motherhood has been here for quite some time.

Churches and nonprofit groups across the country help any one with children and a financial need. They also teach responsible living. The one most widely spread across the country is called care net. Go meet them.
 
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Alex_S is offline Alex_S Post #10  June 17,2009, 8:24am
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Ok, first off, Terry Schiavo could not talk, I don't know where you saw that she could, it was probably a faked video.

"Brain waves" indicate activity (there is living brain tissue, just not fully formed brain). You'd also get that from a mouse - it doesn't indicate human level cognitive processes. People in comas or under general anesthesia have "brain waves", a term used to indicate some neural activity when examined by EEG equipment - just not the type that indicate consciousness.

Finally, I don't really care about financial assistance, that's great for people who want to go through 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth, but for someone who desperately does not want the fetus in her body? She'll do anything to get it out. Even if it involves putting herself in mortal danger. The World Health Organization estimates that making abortion illegal does not, in fact, reduce the number of abortions, but does increase death by abortion by up to 90% (in the case of South America).

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html

If you personally disagree with abortion, that's fine. Just don't argue to make it illegal. I'd prefer not to see that many women (and girls) die.

You want to help babies? Spend the time and effort helping the women who WANT pre-natal care get it.
 
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