denimgolfer is offline denimgolfer Post #1  March 21,2011, 1:36pm
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Question: do you think that other grief events allow you to learn the grief process and help you at the time of a spouse’s death? And does an experience with fully resolving one death event allow you to better handle another event?
I’ve been pondering this for about a month, and it relates back to providing emotional support for my sister after her husband’s death.
Hypothesis: It seems overall that we learn about the process of grieving, the fact that there are stages (as we discuss here), and the perception that you may go back and forth between stages of grief in a way that may cause you to feel like you have “slipped” and are not “handling it as well” as you were some other time.
Possibly significant background:
When my father died in 1994 it was the first shocking and significant death in my life, and I didn’t have much experience with grief (all my grandparents were alive). Therefore, I chose to get some individual grief counseling and then participated in a group for about 10 weeks. Sometime after that I recall my sister saying “D had to go get help after dad died” in a way that caused me to think she put a stigma on seeking the help.
My mom and I recently discussed the grieving process, because mom is concerned about my sister. We agree that she seems stuck (it’s been over 4 years since her husband died, if a timeframe is relevant). We both perceive that she’s specifically stuck with the “remembering only the good” issue. I mentioned to mom that I learned quite a bit from the counseling I received in 1995 and hypothesized that my sister didn’t have the benefit of a “full resolution” experience so she is not only still grieving her husband’s death, but it rekindled some unresolved grief from our dad’s death.
Summary of question(s): do you think the grieving experience for a spouse is enough different from other losses that no other “grief experience” provides a basis for that process? And is no significant loss ever fully resolved and therefore emotions can flare up with subsequent events? I really appreciate your time reading this and any feedback you want to offer.
Last edited by denimgolfer; March 21,2011 at 1:46pm. Reason: typo and sorry it's a novel...
 
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j0hn8andy is offline j0hn8andy Post #2  March 21,2011, 6:33pm
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I don't think you can "practice" grief.

People died before my husband...grandparents (not close) my first in-laws, friends, a great nephew at eight days (that was tough) my second mother-in-law...

None of them, except the great nephew, affected me...and even the great nephew was nowhere near to touching me...like my husband. His was truly the first shocking and significant death in my life.

It was two weeks from when we found out he was sick until he died. I was totally unprepared, and never, ever...believed he would, or even could...die. They told us every day they couldn't save him; it never sunk in.

I was in shock for a very long time.

Six months after my husband...my mother died, suddenly, just like him. I was numb, even though I had to do some nursing. My father, who had been ill for many years, never recovered from her death; he died six months after she did. Still felt nothing.

In between my parents, a good friend who had been so helpful to me when my husband died...fell ill, and died herself.

Those three deaths after my husband...all people I loved...I didn't feel any worse. I was just numb with shock.

It's like the whole year happened to somebody else.

WRT being "stuck". A couple friends have suggested I should be looking for the next husband. The Well-Intentioned, I call them; they mean well. For all I know...they may think I'm "stuck".

I like where I am. I'm on nobody's schedule but my own.

I don't think a person will get "stuck" because they only "remember the good". I'm a person that deliberately looks for the good in whatever situation I happen to come up against. Some people are just Optimists.

Even the first husband...whom I initiated divorce proceedings with after 18 years...I have nothing but "good" to say about him. That's a "good" thing.

I do think the grieving for a spouse (assuming there was love between them) is different enough from other deaths...as to be in a class of its own.

FWIW, that friend I mentioned who died in between my parents...had been widowed three times, herself. She told me it didn't get any easier...

If I were to offer a Friend any advice at all...I would not let my sister hear anything about being "stuck". I would not receive it well, even from family, and don't see how it could be helpful.

I do believe support could be offered, when one is up to it...like offers to go out, travel, resume activities...whatever sisters or mothers and daughters might do together, having nothing to do with one of them being widowed. I'm sure you're doing that.

That's when I feel most normal, and forget that I'm widowed...when I'm doing normal, everyday stuff with normal people.

j8a
Last edited by j0hn8andy; March 21,2011 at 6:37pm.
 
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tink333 is offline tink333 — Advice Member-Moderator Post #3  March 21,2011, 7:25pm
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denimgolfer,

In my limited exposure to death of people close to me, I don't believe that one can 'practice' grieving. Even though I understood the process when my husband died, I don't think it made it easier or more difficult for me to process and get to a point where I could live with it.

I think all of our experiences shape who we are, and if we experience death of someone close to us (other than a spouse), that death and subsequent grieving shape us. The first death close to me was my uncle. My parents had not allowed me to experience the wake and funeral process until that time (I was 19). I ran screaming out of the funeral home when I saw his body lying there in an open casket. We weren't especially close since we didn't live near each other, so I don't think it was the shock of his death that hit me, rather the freakiness of the wake situation for which I was so completely unprepared. The next loss I remember is when I saw pictures on the news of people who were lost in TWA 800 over Lockerbie, Scotland and recognized my former classmate. I remember the shock and how fully his death shook me for months.

I have been quite fortunate that I have not yet experienced the loss of my parents or my 'adopted' mom; however, others with whom I was close have gone, and I can honestly say the grieving was different than when I lost my spouse. The other people who passed were a part of my life for certain, but they were not my soulmate, life partner, the person with whom I did everything and discussed everything. I think the chasm left when one loses a spouse is different - it's not that it's bigger or greater. I have difficulty finding the words to explain myself.

I guess it's that when one is married, the lines between one's self and one's mate are blurred - like the lines one hears in a Christian marriage service - 'the two shall become one.' I think to a certain extent one loses part of one's self when one's spouse dies. I think this aspect is what exactly makes the situation and the grieving different than that for a parent, sibling, close friend or other relative. To answer part of your question: I don't think that experience with grieving for anyone else prepares us for the loss of a spouse.

Without knowing the situation with your sister, I cannot guess whether or not she is stuck. 'Remembering the good' is pretty common in most loss situations, but it's not a stage of the grieving per se. In all the research I have done on the subject, I have read specifically that one should not try to rush a person along or give them signals that they are taking too long, because it can actually cause the person to experience a setback in healing. The articles I have read also have stated that sometimes the 'pain of bereavement may never fully heal.' It is a possibility you should be prepared for.

I agree with j8a, that I always felt 'more normal' or more like myself when I was able to do things I would normally with people I would normally be with. I think you and your mom should continue to offer support to your sister. Four years is not at all long, and as we have all said at one time or other in these threads, there really is not a timetable. It was harder for me after the first year passed because people assumed I was automatically better after the 12th month concluded. They seemed less willing to listen or be supportive as if the first year were all that mattered, and they treated me as if I could flip a switch, recover and move on.

When I met JediSoth and we first became friends, we discussed how no one around us really understood what it meant to have lost a spouse except those of us who had. We didn't mean to suggest that others were not helpful or supportive, but as I said earlier, it is different.

Continue to be supportive for your sister. She probably needs more time. Talking about the good means she is still processing, and Jedi and I still talk about the good from time to time at appropriate moments. Remembering the good is truly a 'good' thing.

I hope this is helpful.
-Tink
Last edited by tink333; March 21,2011 at 7:30pm. Reason: can't spell tonight
 
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denimgolfer is offline denimgolfer Post #4  March 22,2011, 12:42pm
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Thank you both for your thoughtful responses to my rambling. I think I overthought the whole thing. I really try not to “should” people and I have never presumed to tell my sister she should think, feel, say, or do anything. Because my mom is also a widow and she knows my sister is reaching out to me I started wondering if I should be “doing” something. Hhhmmmm – I guess I’m shoulding myself.

All my sister wants is a listener who sympathizes, and that’s all I have ever tried to be. She reaches out to me because I’m not judging or advising.

Thanks for allowing me the space to get it out of my head. You’re such a wonderful group! Part of me knows that I can never understand, so I worry out of my ignorance.

Upon reflection I realize that even these two people who are dear to me have very different circumstances to their widowhood. One married 33 years, with adult children, and several months between diagnosis of illness and the end to say goodbyes. One married 3 1/2 years, no intent to have children, and my sister found DH unconscious, so no time.

Thanks again for all your wisdom.
 
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tink333 is offline tink333 — Advice Member-Moderator Post #5  March 22,2011, 1:52pm
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denimgolfer wrote :
All my sister wants is a listener who sympathizes, and that’s all I have ever tried to be. She reaches out to me because I’m not judging or advising.
This is the very best gift you can give your sister. She is so blessed to have a sister who cares so deeply for her.

denimgolfer wrote :
Thanks for allowing me the space to get it out of my head. You’re such a wonderful group! Part of me knows that I can never understand, so I worry out of my ignorance.
Aww. Shucks. Thanks for thinking the group is great. I always feel safe to express deep thoughts and feelings here. I think you are doing a fantastic job of learning and seeking to understand the shoes your sister is walking in - it is hard work, I'll bet, but your sister benefits greatly from your efforts.

denimgolfer wrote :
Upon reflection I realize that even these two people who are dear to me have very different circumstances to their widowhood. One married 33 years, with adult children, and several months between diagnosis of illness and the end to say goodbyes. One married 3 1/2 years, no intent to have children, and my sister found DH unconscious, so no time.
You may have hit on a huge issue your sister is grappling with - if she had no time to prepare and it was a sudden loss, she may have tons of feelings and thoughts that may have never been expressed between her and her DH. THIS may be part of why her progress seems slower, but there are many other things that could be in play, too. You are doing a remarkable job of just being there for her. That you continue to do that, may be the very best thing you can do for her.

-Tink
 
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Sparkles56 is offline Sparkles56 Post #6  March 22,2011, 6:03pm
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tink333 wrote :
You may have hit on a huge issue your sister is grappling with - if she had no time to prepare and it was a sudden loss, she may have tons of feelings and thoughts that may have never been expressed between her and her DH. THIS may be part of why her progress seems slower, but there are many other things that could be in play, too...
Denimgolfer, this is an important thing to consider, not because it might alter your actions towards your sister, but it might help you understand what she is feeling.

Like your sister, I found my wife after she had passed away; it was a shock to me. I woke up on June 28th of last year, a Monday morning, ready to help my wife with her morning routine. But there she lay, lifeless.

Having said that, her passing was at an absolute high point in our relationship. We had no regrets with each other, no bitterness, no unshared thoughts or feelings. We were fundamentally at peace with each other and where we were. I believe this was an important factor in where I am today. Had we not been that close, I believe I would be in a very different place today, most likely a much worse place.
 
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j0hn8andy is offline j0hn8andy Post #7  March 22,2011, 7:35pm
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denimgolfer wrote :
All my sister wants is a listener who sympathizes, and that’s all I have ever tried to be. She reaches out to me because I’m not judging or advising.
Yes; exactly.

denimgolfer wrote :
Thanks for allowing me the space to get it out of my head. You’re such a wonderful group! Part of me knows that I can never understand, so I worry out of my ignorance.
You worry...because you love her, same as the people that worry for me. Your sister knows that, and she's grateful...same as we all are, for those who worry about us.

denimgolfer wrote :
Upon reflection I realize that even these two people who are dear to me have very different circumstances to their widowhood. One married 33 years, with adult children, and several months between diagnosis of illness and the end to say goodbyes. One married 3 1/2 years, no intent to have children, and my sister found DH unconscious, so no time.
Absolutely agree here with the others. Those whose spouses had a lengthy, sometimes debilitating illness...usually managed to say their "goodbyes" long before death occurs. Their hearts have time to accept the inevitable.

Those without the luxury of time...are left with shock.


We're fortunate to have you here, DenimGolfer. No need for any apologies for rambling thoughts. We are all finding our way here. None of us have been here before, have we?

In addition, you gave me a very valuable piece of advice...just exactly when I needed it...in another thread, if you recall.

j8a
 
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denimgolfer is offline denimgolfer Post #8  March 23,2011, 6:27pm
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j0hn8andy wrote :
You worry...because you love her, same as the people that worry for me. Your sister knows that, and she's grateful...same as we all are, for those who worry about us.
Thanks for re-framing that. You really are very good at seeing the good and speaking positively. Lots of good things to think about from you, Tink, and Sparkles.

j0hn8andy wrote :
In addition, you gave me a very valuable piece of advice...just exactly when I needed it...in another thread, if you recall.
It takes a village, even the village idiot.

Seriously though, the day you quoted me in another thread I had little beams of sunshine shooting out of my fingertips at the thought that I provided comfort to someone.

We can all share our ideas, and occasionally it's just what someone needed to hear at that moment.

And because I love a happy ending I'll end with... in a recent conversation my sister mentioned her 50th b'day (a year off) and invited me to go on a trip with her to celebrate, so she is definitely doing things to look forward to the future.
 
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j0hn8andy is offline j0hn8andy Post #9  March 23,2011, 7:01pm
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denimgolfer wrote :
Seriously though, the day you quoted me in another thread I had little beams of sunshine shooting out of my fingertips at the thought that I provided comfort to someone.

And because I love a happy ending I'll end with... in a recent conversation my sister mentioned her 50th b'day (a year off) and invited me to go on a trip with her to celebrate, so she is definitely doing things to look forward to the future.
That's a good thing; a trip for her 50th.

Little beams of sunshine...

There's a guy at the gym calls me Sunshine.

I finally told him the other day...he just makes my entire day when he does that.

j8a
 
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tink333 is offline tink333 — Advice Member-Moderator Post #10  March 23,2011, 8:33pm
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denimgolfer,

I just re-read my post, and figured out the quoting thing got screwed up, so it makes no sense at all after the second quote. Looks like part of my editing got trashed. In my original response I said something similar to what j8a put in hers about you worrying because you love her...You know what they say about great minds

I am very happy to hear your sister is planning for her 50th birthday. I was just a little younger (43) when my husband died in 2007, and I found it hard because I was younger than most people I met who had gone through the same experience. I'm wondering if her age has anything to do with her grieving or not. It seemed to for me.

It is great news that she is planning and that she wants you to go with her, too, for her special birthday. Hope you have a wonderful time planning the trip.
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