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cassie4Jesus Post #1 September 17,2011, 5:23pm

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Hi there

I have a question for christian men (women feel free to chime in too). Are men intimidated by a woman with a minister's license? I am asking because I am 23 and I will be a licensed minister in a few months. I do not see my self pastoring a church, but my heart is for missions and reaching the world with God's love. I am very open about this on my EH profile and I am wondering if it is something that should be kept private until I get to know someone better. Any thoughts?

PreachersSon Post #2 September 18,2011, 11:50am

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Okay, I have a few questions first.

1. Who issued (or will issue) you the license? (A local church, a bishop, a denominational board, a seminary)

2. What does it "license" you to do? (Pastor, preach, work in the nursery, be a worship leader?)

3. If you do not see yourself pastoring a church, then why would you need to be a licensed minister? (You don't need a license (or an ordination) to be a witness, or to be involved in missions--even as a missionary. You don't even really need a license to preach.)

4. What is your understanding of the Biblical role of men and women in the church, particularly as it regards ministry/leadership?

5. Are you pursuing ministry because of decisions you have made, or are you acting on a call from God?

All of these would guide my attitude toward a person who wanted to be (or claimed to be) a licensed minister, whether they were male or female.

cassie4Jesus Post #3 September 18,2011, 12:25pm

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@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } 1. I will be licensed through the Assemblies of God denomination.

2. The license gives me a denominational backing, enables me to pastor churches, to become an evangelist, to become a missionary, and it enables me to officiate weddings and funerals.

3. I have been actively involved in ministry for almost five years. I have always felt that God is the one who calls and equips, but I came to a point in my ministry where I realized that in order for God to use my full potential I would need to go to bible college and work toward a ministers license. I have preached, done outreaches, and gone on mission trips without a license. It is more about the fact that this is what God has asked me to do, even though I don't agree with the system. I think it is sad that in order for a person (especially a woman) to be taken serious in ministry they need an educational background and a license.

4. I believe that men are called to be the head of the household and should always have some sort of leadership role. I also believe that men and women are equal in the eyes of God. I believe that God values women in ministry and desires to use women in ministry. I also think it is important be keep in mind what Paul was saying to his original audiences in his epistles before deciding what God intends to speak to us through them. Often times, we forget that the Bible was written to people who have gone on to glory many years ago. Yes, God intended it to guide us and shape our lives, but could Paul possibly known that we would be reading his letters thousands of years later? Also, Paul mentions several women who were valuable in his ministry. Unfortunately, the Bible can be interpreted in many ways.

5. I would have never chosen this life for myself. This is God's call on my life. Eight years ago, I was a suicidal atheist. God rescued me from a life of brokenness. He gave his life for me. How could I tell him no? I just want to please him, even when it means giving up my dreams.

Did I pass the interview?

notyet Post #4 September 20,2011, 9:40pm

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cassie4Jesus wrote :

Hi there

while a heart for missions is a noble thing, i would probably not have dated a woman with a minister's license. in fact, i didn't. i was matched with a pastor not far from me and did screen her out because of her occupation.

as to whether or not you should "keep it private," i am a big fan of full disclosure of most things that people usually talk about when getting to know another.

"so, what do you do for a living?"

"what did you study in school?"

"what do you hope to do with your life?"

i think you get my point.

many things do not need to be disclosed early. some things should be brought up later. a few things may never be brought up. but your license? yes, i believe that you should disclose that early.

PreachersSon Post #5 September 21,2011, 1:01am

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cassie4Jesus wrote :

Well, three out of five ain't bad, but it's still a failing grade.

Let's take the questions one at a time.

1. I personally believe that ordination should only be given by the local church, for the simple reason that no other body has a scriptural right to ordain or license anybody, when it comes to ministry (Note deacons in Acts, and missionaries in Acts 13. I also believe in Acts 13-14, when "they ordained elders (pastors) in every church", that Paul and Barnabas were acting as agents of the church in Antioch, which had sent them, and to which they reported back.) However, since that is not your denominational background, I'll give you a pass on this one.

2. Your answer to this one is fine, although, it does beg question 3.

3. I understand your frustration here, and have felt some of the same irritations (I don't necessarily think Bible college and such should be a prerequisite to official ministry, and don't agree with the system. However, it seems to be expected that you (I,we) will jump through the appropriate hoops in order to be taken seriously.) It still begs the question, though, since the license enables you to pastor, officate weddings, and so on, but you don't plan to do that, then why do you need the license?

5. You knocked this one out of the park. I can't disagree with a word of it. Which brings us to...

4. I think this is the heart of the question. It hinges on your view of, and willingness to obey, scripture. You say, "I believe that men are called to be the head of the household, and should always have some sort of leadership role. I also believe that men and women are equal in the eyes of God. I believe that God values women in ministry, and desires to use women in ministry." So far, so good.

However, it's interesting that the Pauline commands are so clear ("If any man desire the office of a bishop (pastor)...must be the husband of one wife" "For I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man", etc, and the Lukean example just as clear ("Look you out among you seven men," etc.) that, in order to justify women in the pastorate, you feel compelled to denigrate scripture.

You ask "could Paul possibly have known" we would be reading his letters two thousand years later? What you miss here is that God wrote those epistles, according to the scriptures themselves. He just used Paul as his instrument. So, God would have made sure that whatever was written was useful and authoritative, not just for the original audience, but for those He knew would read them later. And God certainly knew we would be reading them all these years later, and intended for us to do what He said, not to decide that He couldn't possibly have meant what He said, because it doesn't square with our modern day thoughts/ambitions.

If the scriptures are our authority, then it is quite clear what they say about women in the pastorate. The fact that Paul mentions women prominently (Although, tellingly, never in the pastorate) only proves that God (and Paul) loved women, and appreciated their contributions to the work of God. It has no bearing on his inspired commands.

On the other hand, if you reduce the scriptures to a guidline, or to a set of books written a long time ago, to people who "have gone on to glory", then you have no basis for being in the ministry, since that means that the Bible is fallible. So, its record of Jesus life, death, and resurrection are suspect, and the gospel it preaches may just be one of many ways to God, or no way at all.

It's one or the other. Either, the Bible is our authority, in which case, it clearly forbids women in the pastorate, and in the pulpit (although NOT in other areas of ministry), or the Bible's commands are suggestions that we can explain away when we don't agree with them, in which case, you have no message. You can't have it both ways, and no amount of "contextualization" or "explanation" or "interpretation" can get you around the clear dictates of scripture on this. The same Bible that tells you that Jesus died for you is the same Bible that tells you that men and women are equal before God is the same Bible that tells you that the husband is called to lead the home is the same Bible that tells you that women cannot be pastors. Either you accept all of it, or you reject all of it.

I don't mean to be harsh, but there simply is no getting around this point. And whatever you may feel about your call (and I don't doubt you there), God will never call you to go against His word. That is because the same Holy Spirit that calls us is the same Holy Spirit who inspired and preserved the scriptures, and God will not disagree with Himself.

So, to answer your original question: No, I would not date a woman who thought she was, or intended to be, an ordained/licensed minister, if by that she meant that she would preach to a mixed congregation (her preaching to women would be fine.), or hold any kind of ministerial office in the church (pastor, deacon), or perform any kind of ministerial duties (weddings, etc.).

This would not be because I was "intimidated" by her ( I would, in fact, want any woman I date to have a strong desire to serve in the church, (Because a pastor's wife is going to be hip deep in the ministry, and needs to have a heart for it, even though she won't be preaching or pastoring), and be well versed in the scriptures (because, a strong man needs a strong woman by his side). It simply is not scriptural for a woman to preach or pastor (or deacon). There simply is no scriptural warrant for husband/wife copastors, or for a "pastor's husband." So, on that basis, I would have to decline.

I do agree with notyet, though, that this is something you should disclose early. Any man who is going to worry about being called a chauvinist is not going to mind, while a man with strong feelings, or biblical objections, is going to feel betrayed if you withhold this for any length of time. I don't withhold my calling from women I date, and you should not hold out on men you date, either. That's just my opinion, though.

Last edited by PreachersSon; September 21,2011 at 2:49am.

cassie4Jesus Post #6 September 22,2011, 5:34am

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Like I said, it is up to interpretation. Each person reads and understands the Bible through their own worldview. Our experiences and background shape the way we view things, even the unchanging Word of God. Does that mean the Bible is false because of this? I don't think so. I could sit here and argue with you. I could lay out the evidence I have for my side, but I am afraid that it would only cause disunity in the Body. That is something I refuse to be apart of. Thank you for your opinion. God bless!

PreachersSon Post #7 September 22,2011, 1:34pm

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All I will say (at the risk of causing disunion

) is that you asked the question. If you weren't prepared to deal with the answers (beyond "You believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what I want to believe"--which frankly, is a cop out.), then I don't really see what the point of the exercise was. But anyway...

So, how would you interpret God's command not to commit adultery? Does it depend on your circumstances, background, and experiences? Because, I guarantee you that an adulterer would think so!

I'm not asking anybody to agree with me, necessarily, but the Bible either says what it says, or it says whatever we want it to say. If it's the latter (which is essentially your position), then it says nothing, and we all ought to throw it away and close our churches. Sadly, I think many of the lost are coming to that exact conclusion when they see those of us who claim to believe the Book, explain it away when what it says doesn't suit us.

@Cassie: I understand if you no longer want to continue the debate here. However, I would honestly like to hear your defense. So, feel free to send me a PM, stating your case biblically, and I promise to give it an honest reading. Thanks.

cassie4Jesus Post #8 September 22,2011, 5:47pm

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PreachersSon wrote :

All I will say (at the risk of causing disunion

If you read my original post, I simply asked if a female pastor is intimidating. I did not ask for opinions regarding the Biblical viewpoint of women in ministry ( although I knew they would come, just not in this severity). I did not ask to be interviewed. I did not ask for my relationship with God or my belief in the Word to be questioned. Now, if I had posted about the Biblical viewpoint I would be glad to have a friendly debate. Yet, I resolve to not jab at my brother-in-Christ. I could list several laws, mandates, and commandments that are not followed in the modern-day church. Is it worth it? I am actually more curious about what our fellow readers think of this banter!

On a humorous note, reader, you should check out the skit "Help" by the Skit Guys on Youtube.com.

PreachersSon Post #9 September 22,2011, 6:47pm

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Your point that you only asked whether men would be intimidated by a female pastor is well taken. It's just that to truthfully answer that question required delving into what you meant by the term, and whether such a thing is even biblical. Because, while I would not date such a woman, it has nothing to do with being intimidated by her, and everything to do with whether or not such a woman is following scripture, just the same as any man should be tested against scripture, especially one who claims the call to ministry.

It's clear that you are not willing to discuss the issue on those terms, which are the only terms it belongs on, even though you admit that you knew this was the central issue implicit in the question.

(And I thought we were having a friendly debate. An unfriendly one would include charges of heresy, chauvinism, rebellion against God, and personal attacks. I did none of these things. (For the record, I didn't question your relationship to God, and you indicated that you don't believe what the Book says, in your second post. I merely called you on it, which seems to bother you.) I've simply stated a position, backed it up with scripture, and challenged you to do the same. Why you think this is not something two Christians should be able to do without sundering fellowship is beyond me.)

However, since you apparently feel that this is a side issue, and will not support your position from scripture, I don't know what else can productively be said.

It might help if you would share what prompted the question Maybe we could have a more productive discussion on the topic if you did.

Have you experienced aversion from Christian men to your ministerial aspirations, that you interpreted as them being intimidated? Or have some men told you outright that they were intimidated by the idea?

Because I would guess that many Christian men would be averse to the idea, based on it's dubious scipturality (There I go again.

), but might not be brave enough to actually confront you with those feelings, either because they want you to like them, or they are afraid of being called anti-woman, or some kind of other intimidation tactic, so they self censor. Then you interpret that as them being intimidated by women pastors, which may not be the case at all.

In any case, if you were to share what experiences or cogitations led you to ask the question, it might give us some insight into what kind of response you are looking for, and maybe we could be more helpful.

Last edited by PreachersSon; September 22,2011 at 6:54pm.

ursa Post #10 September 23,2011, 2:40am

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PreachersSon wrote :

While I agree wholeheartedly with PreachersSon's observation about the reaction of "the lost" to extreme liberalism, it is my observation that others of their number are equally convinced that churches should be closed when they encounter those whose beliefs are as exact and exacting as those he expresses.

Having said that, I feel constrained to declare my "limey" identity, in the knowledge that Christianity has a different public image over here. For instance, over here I am the sort of Anglican who is considered so conservative that "our" Synod members were on the receiving end of hateful behaviour from the liberals for resisting the consecration of women as Bishops.(unsuccessfully) Yet I fail to reach PreachersSon's standards. Over here he wouldn't be thought of as a conservative, but a (raving!)fundamentalist.

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