abjon is offline abjon Post #1  July 7,2010, 5:36pm

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Why go to church? I am not thinking of non Christians here but those who believe whatever they believe so as to call themselves a Christian rather than, say, a Muslim. As a boy I attended sporadically several different churches. As an adult, I have sometimes gone to church with some well meaning relatives and sometimes to impress some girl friend so I have a few insights into what happens at some churches, at least.

What do you get out of going to church? The music is surely not much in comparison to a good CD of church-like music. The sermons are usually prettly lightweight and all too often middle of the road keep them happy in the pews chats. The preacher is usually about as friendly as a used car salesman when trying to sell you a car--paid to be friendly in other words. Sometimes, especially with the ladies, they are just a bit too friendly, too willing to hold hands and pat the farside so to speak.Good thing too, I guess, in that most churches are peopled predominantly by women.

The Bible reading is often mediocre at best and simply unlistenable in many other instances. It is mostly pre packaged and often designed to avoid the difficult bits.

Most people in churches don't really like each other. Why risk them finding out you participate in one of the church mandated sins and them telling everyone in the church all about it? Besides there not really much fun to be with.

You are usually nagged about how expensive it is to run the church these days and how little you are giving, etc etc etc. Who needs guilt trips laid on you once or twice a week?

If you are reasonably young you will have few people your age. Most churches when emptying on a Sunday morning look like a field trip for seniors, with a sprinkling of families tossed into the mix.

I am not looking for a fight here, but I don't get it. Why waste time in some overly cleaned, sterile building singing songs that are filled with pious nonsense that really means nothing to anyone at all connected to our world, listening to sermons that have all the intellectual and spiritual punch of of a Harlequin Get Well Card, hanging out with people who would never dare risk taking off their Sunday go meeting masks and ever talk about anything that is worthwhile or even remotely real?

If you want to commune with wine and bread, do so. Who is stop you? I once hung out with a group of young people when in Europe and one of them decided to have a sunrise communal service. We drank some wine. We ate some bread. She read the words about doing this to rememeber me as the sun was rising. Seemed to work for us all skeptic and believer. We each got from it what we needed at the time. The churches or paid up guys in reversed collars don't own the bread and wine so have no right to say who gets it and who doesn't.

So why church? If you wanted to sell the idea of church to someone who saw nothing in it other than the perpetuation of an ancient and meaningless weekly social gathering what words would you choose, what examples, what stories that show what you got at church you couldn't have got anywhere else in society.

Any takers among the single Christians?
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peppermint21 is offline peppermint21 Post #2  July 7,2010, 6:32pm
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Hey!

Your examples sound very antiquated...a lot has changed in the last few years.

Most of what you cited is why I left my original church and went searching for a new one four years ago. I got to the point where I was leaving angry and I felt I could have spent better time with God alone.

After a lot of prayer, I found my current place of worship which I love. The first thing that attracted it to me was the location...it was on the beach and at 7am. People who get up that early on a Sunday are probably there because they want to be. My pastor is not only friendly without being saccharine, but he's got a sharp, almost sarcastic wit that makes me feel at home. When he preaches, he focuses his sermons specifically around issues that people in the church have been bringing to him or on issues that he's been seeing with the members. The key there is a pastor has to care...it makes a huge difference.

Every Sunday I leave feeling like I have tools for better dealing with stress at work, problems with friends, working with money, issues with family or just finding meaning in my life. Sometimes things I learn help people around me, or help me empathize with their situations. On top of that, I feel that I get a good starting point for furthering my relationship with God.

My church also keeps a blog and online sermons for review (very helpful because he touches on more than you can really catch at one time) and the blog walks you through additional thoughts that may have been too deep or too lengthy to discuss in a Sunday morning service.

I'm an introvert, so no matter what, I'm not going to enjoy being around people. I almost always prefer staying at home...that's how I know my activities are right for me. If I miss a service, I feel that I've missed something good...huge deal for me. Anyway...I have found my few friends that I'm glad to see. Beyond that though, Christianity, and life overall really, involves interacting, civilly, with people you may not like, or may even vehemently disagree with. If I can learn to get along, and even care about someone who believes differently than I do about spiritual things, arguments over report formats and meeting times begin to seem almost trivial.

I think the most important takeaway is accepting that not every Christian has the same needs and churches shouldn't be cookie cutter. They have to grow, adapt and change with the wants and needs of their parishioners AND the communities around them. Some churches are rolling with the change and some have dug their heels in. That's the nature of any human organization.

I think the point of a church is a base that provides outlets for all members in their various styles of following the faith while upholding Biblical principles. It can't be everything, but it should make members feel safe to follow their own relationship with God while maintaining respect for their minds, personalities and preferences.
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lindseyk is offline lindseyk Post #3  July 7,2010, 6:52pm

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It's not all about what I get out of church or what the church can do for me. If it was, I wouldn't go because the motivation to be there would be both entirely selfish and desperately unfulfilling.

We have all been given gifts and talents that we are to use. Speaking only for myself, I like to be involved in the life the church. I like to use the gifts and talents I have been given to honour God and to help others. I know that I am a good teacher and I taught Sunday School to various age groups for many years. I am also very good with children and have worked in numerous church nurseries, caring for very young children so their parents could participate in the service. I have served on the board of a women's outreach group at the church I attended in Regina. I have participated in leading worship during Sunday services as part of varioous worship teams. I have helped out with youth programs and have sung in choirs. I have set up and taken down chairs for special events and I have helped in the kitchen at church fellowship dinners numerous times.

It's not all about me and how I'm being served, but how I serve others. Do I always get something out of the sermon? No, not always. Is the music always great and uplifting? No, not every single time. Are all the people nice all the time? No, but then neither am I. Do I like everyone I go to church with? Honestly, no. There have been some who have made me rather insane. I do not consider any of those things reason enough to leave, though. If no one stays and works to improve the church from the inside, what will be left? Who will reach out to those who may be venturing in for the first time? Who will be there to comfort or provide a listening ear to those who are hurting or in need? Who will put their shoulder to the wheel and work to change things? Who will get down on their knees and pray for the church?

My experiences with church have not always been great. The first pastor I had was not the world's greatest preacher and I knew that from probably about nine years old. He was, however, one of the greatest pastors I ever knew. He cared about people, no matter who they were and no matter whether or not they ever darkened the door of the church. He took time out of his day to help people with home renovations or whatever else they needed. He dropped everything at any hour for those in need. I know him still and he is the same as he was then. His chief concern is the well-being of people, no matter who they are or where they have come from.

The second pastor we had at that church was not so great. He was abusive to my mom, cruel to the other members of my family, and caused no end of problems in the church. Still, my family and I continued going there. We had built relationships with the people in that church over many years and had committed ourselves to serving there, no matter what the cost - and the cost was high sometimes. We were not served or nourished in any way while that pastor was there. It was like being in a desert, but no one ever said being a Christian, or being around other Christians, was easy or always pleasant. Christians are human too and we fail often.

My experiences with church in the last five or so years have been beyond anything I ever expected. When I was still in Regina, I became part of a real church family. My own family was halfway across the country from me and I rarely got to see them, sometimes not for a year or two. The people at my church took me in and made me their daughter, granddaughter, sister, and friend. When I found myself living only on the meager amount I received from student loans and in need of a home, a family from the church took me in. When I found myself without money for food, the church helped me out. When I had nowhere to go for holidays like Christmas and sometimes Easter and Thanksgiving, people from the church included me in their family gatherings. My pastor and his wife always took me with them to their family Christmas Eve celebration. When my now ex-fiance and I broke up, the members of my church rallied around me and supported me.

Throughout my years at that church, I always sat with a group of widows, who adopted me as their own. There were people there who always made a point of finding me, or I would find them on Sunday mornings, just to get a hug and to say, "How are you? What is going on in your world?" When I graduated with my undergraduate degree, these people rejoiced with me. I rejoiced with them over good things in their lives and mourned with them as they grieved. I came to expect excellent sermons from my pastor and he rarely disappointed. He was and is rooted in the Word and never shied away from admitting his own areas of struggle. He never elevated himself above his congregation, but walked with us, learned with us, and grappled with the sometimes harsh realities of life, especially the Christian life, with us. I also never ceased to appreciate the elders in our church - the members of the Board. These men of faith were an amazing example to me. They walked with God for decades and could tell numerous stories of God's grace in their lives and in the life of the church.

When I first started attending there, I was the only person my age in the church. There were a few youngish families, but the congregation was predominantly seniors. It was these people who took me in and made me one of their own. I could have left. I could have found a younger, hipper church or not gone to church at all, but I stayed. I stayed and got involved. I stayed and forged friendships that I never found anywhere else. I gained wisdom from these wonderful people and also seemed to add something to their lives. My last Sunday there before I moved to Ottawa, we all had tears in our eyes. After so much time spent growing together and building into each others' lives, it was hard, even painful, to say goodbye. The journey was not without its difficulties and disappointments and the relationships did not always progress smoothly, but bonds were developed that went far beyond any other friendship I had while in Regina. The people in that church were my family. I still regard them as such. I don't always get along with my actual family and I don't always get along with my church family either, but going to church and building into the lives of the people there is something I will never, ever give up. There is too much to be given and gained there. The times of joy and refreshing are worth the occasional desert or season pain.

In the end, I discovered Christ in the church. He has made Himself known to me through the people in the churches I have attended and I can only hope that He has and will continue to reveal himself to others in and outside the church through me.
 
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abjon is offline abjon Post #4  July 7,2010, 7:36pm

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peppermint21 wrote :
Hey!

Your examples sound very antiquated...a lot has changed in the last few years.
Hey, yourself!

For the most part my church experience is with "mainline" Protestant churches like the Baptist, Lutherans and Presbyterians. I have also attended once in a blue moon thing a few mega churches. These I liked least of all. It seemed all so hyped up with bands, choir girls, lots of AV equipment, sound systems, theater seating and so on.

I also a couple of times attended a very, very conservative church where the ladies all covered their head with some kind of lacy cloth and were told not to speak in church! There was no musical instrument allowed other than the human voice. It had no paid pastors only men from church who volunteered to speak that day.

I couldn't stand what I saw as overt sexism. I liked the simplicity of the service and even that no one was paid to be, in effect, the God expert.

So I don't know if my experience is out of date so much as different from your present situation.

Your church sounds wonderful and I like the idea that you are encouraged to comment on the sermons over the Net. I have to say though that if I attended a church early in the morning overlooking a beach I would be very, very tempted to get outside and commune with God in nature.

I gather you must go to a very big church if it can have services at different times of the day on Sunday. I think this is good, too. I never could figure out why service at 11 a.m. was somehow seen as a more holy hour than some other hour.

Thank you for sharing your church experience with all of us.
 
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abjon is offline abjon Post #5  July 7,2010, 7:51pm

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lindseyk wrote :
It's not all about what I get out of church or what the church can do for me. If it was, I wouldn't go because the motivation to be there would be both entirely selfish and desperately unfulfilling.

We have all been given gifts and talents that we are to use. Speaking only for myself, I like to be involved in the life the church. I like to use the gifts and talents I have been given to honour God and to help others. I know that I am a good teacher and I taught Sunday School to various age groups for many years. I am also very good with children and have worked in numerous church nurseries, caring for very young children so their parents could participate in the service. I have served on the board of a women's outreach group at the church I attended in Regina. I have participated in leading worship during Sunday services as part of varioous worship teams. I have helped out with youth programs and have sung in choirs. I have set up and taken down chairs for special events and I have helped in the kitchen at church fellowship dinners numerous times.

It's not all about me and how I'm being served, but how I serve others. Do I always get something out of the sermon? No, not always. Is the music always great and uplifting? No, not every single time. Are all the people nice all the time? No, but then neither am I. Do I like everyone I go to church with? Honestly, no. There have been some who have made me rather insane. I do not consider any of those things reason enough to leave, though. If no one stays and works to improve the church from the inside, what will be left? Who will reach out to those who may be venturing in for the first time? Who will be there to comfort or provide a listening ear to those who are hurting or in need? Who will put their shoulder to the wheel and work to change things? Who will get down on their knees and pray for the church?

My experiences with church have not always been great. The first pastor I had was not the world's greatest preacher and I knew that from probably about nine years old. He was, however, one of the greatest pastors I ever knew. He cared about people, no matter who they were and no matter whether or not they ever darkened the door of the church. He took time out of his day to help people with home renovations or whatever else they needed. He dropped everything at any hour for those in need. I know him still and he is the same as he was then. His chief concern is the well-being of people, no matter who they are or where they have come from.

The second pastor we had at that church was not so great. He was abusive to my mom, cruel to the other members of my family, and caused no end of problems in the church. Still, my family and I continued going there. We had built relationships with the people in that church over many years and had committed ourselves to serving there, no matter what the cost - and the cost was high sometimes. We were not served or nourished in any way while that pastor was there. It was like being in a desert, but no one ever said being a Christian, or being around other Christians, was easy or always pleasant. Christians are human too and we fail often.

My experiences with church in the last five or so years have been beyond anything I ever expected. When I was still in Regina, I became part of a real church family. My own family was halfway across the country from me and I rarely got to see them, sometimes not for a year or two. The people at my church took me in and made me their daughter, granddaughter, sister, and friend. When I found myself living only on the meager amount I received from student loans and in need of a home, a family from the church took me in. When I found myself without money for food, the church helped me out. When I had nowhere to go for holidays like Christmas and sometimes Easter and Thanksgiving, people from the church included me in their family gatherings. My pastor and his wife always took me with them to their family Christmas Eve celebration. When my now ex-fiance and I broke up, the members of my church rallied around me and supported me.

Throughout my years at that church, I always sat with a group of widows, who adopted me as their own. There were people there who always made a point of finding me, or I would find them on Sunday mornings, just to get a hug and to say, "How are you? What is going on in your world?" When I graduated with my undergraduate degree, these people rejoiced with me. I rejoiced with them over good things in their lives and mourned with them as they grieved. I came to expect excellent sermons from my pastor and he rarely disappointed. He was and is rooted in the Word and never shied away from admitting his own areas of struggle. He never elevated himself above his congregation, but walked with us, learned with us, and grappled with the sometimes harsh realities of life, especially the Christian life, with us. I also never ceased to appreciate the elders in our church - the members of the Board. These men of faith were an amazing example to me. They walked with God for decades and could tell numerous stories of God's grace in their lives and in the life of the church.

When I first started attending there, I was the only person my age in the church. There were a few youngish families, but the congregation was predominantly seniors. It was these people who took me in and made me one of their own. I could have left. I could have found a younger, hipper church or not gone to church at all, but I stayed. I stayed and got involved. I stayed and forged friendships that I never found anywhere else. I gained wisdom from these wonderful people and also seemed to add something to their lives. My last Sunday there before I moved to Ottawa, we all had tears in our eyes. After so much time spent growing together and building into each others' lives, it was hard, even painful, to say goodbye. The journey was not without its difficulties and disappointments and the relationships did not always progress smoothly, but bonds were developed that went far beyond any other friendship I had while in Regina. The people in that church were my family. I still regard them as such. I don't always get along with my actual family and I don't always get along with my church family either, but going to church and building into the lives of the people there is something I will never, ever give up. There is too much to be given and gained there. The times of joy and refreshing are worth the occasional desert or season pain.

In the end, I discovered Christ in the church. He has made Himself known to me through the people in the churches I have attended and I can only hope that He has and will continue to reveal himself to others in and outside the church through me.
That is a powerful testimony lindseyk. You almost make me wish I belonged to a church in the same deep way you belong to your church, especially the one you speak of in Regina.

You and your immediate family are better people than myself. If someone had abused my mom I would have been all over him in an instant and wouldn't care whether he wore a collar-less shirt or not. I suppose it is situations like that that do strengthen a person. But for me and probably a lot of other people it was what originally pushed us out of church.

I stand by what I said about you sharing with us a powerful testimony but I think it is also a testimony not just to what a church offers but also yourself and the qualities you possess as a human being. You are truly a good person, a good Christian woman.

(Notyet, I am not hitting on your lady. Just pointing out an obvious truth about lindseyk )

Thanks for sharing lindseyk.
 
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Lcanada is offline Lcanada Post #6  July 7,2010, 8:59pm
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lindseyk wrote :
It's not all about what I get out of church or what the church can do for me. If it was, I wouldn't go because the motivation to be there would be both entirely selfish and desperately unfulfilling.


It's not all about me and how I'm being served, but how I serve others.

Who will get down on their knees and pray for the church?

In the end, I discovered Christ in the church. He has made Himself known to me through the people in the churches I have attended and I can only hope that He has and will continue to reveal himself to others in and outside the church through me.

So much great stuff in there Lindsey ! I only picked a sample to highlight

I agree Church should not be what people think it can do for them,
and there often lies a problem if everyone expects to be served

I also agree with peppermint - everyone feeling safe to follow their own
realtionship with God (that implies people are there for a greater purpose
than themsleves and finding relationships that serve them)


"I think the point of a church is a base that provides outlets for all members in their various styles of following the faith while upholding Biblical principles. It can't be everything, but it should make members feel safe to follow their own relationship with God while maintaining respect for their minds, personalities and preferences"


abjon - in the Churches I have attended in several cities (Canada and the US)
none have been like that you describe. Maybe you ran into some Churches
that focus on sin and not The Cross. Maybe those same places might be different today than they were many years ago. Have you been back to any Churches recently (chosen for yourself, not by a girlfriend) ? Have you tried a few Sundays in a row in one place ? Hope you find a Church you like.
 
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rix is offline rix Post #7  July 9,2010, 1:59pm
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Personally, I believe going to church is not essentially necessary for spiritual growth. Spiritual growth is very personal, and normally takes place through the discipline of private study and contemplation. But, what church should provide, is a sense of community. And ideally, it should be a sort of "hospital for sinners," since we all foul-up and make mistakes, and not a place where self-righteous people play the game of spiritual one-up-manship. And I believe that is what Christ intended, since he offered mercy and grace to those who stumbled, but reserved his harshest judgment for those who hypocritically passed judgment on others.
 
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abjon is offline abjon Post #8  July 9,2010, 5:56pm

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Lcanada wrote :

abjon - in the Churches I have attended in several cities (Canada and the US)
none have been like that you describe. Maybe you ran into some Churches
that focus on sin and not The Cross. Maybe those same places might be different today than they were many years ago. Have you been back to any Churches recently (chosen for yourself, not by a girlfriend) ? Have you tried a few Sundays in a row in one place ? Hope you find a Church you like.
Well I have not attended any church regularly since I was a boy. I have off and on attended a few churches more recently. I can't really say I have gone to church for several Sundays in a row. I sometimes say I will do so but usually wind up going out too late the night before and wind up sleeping in.

i know people get much from their churches. i appreciate this, but really myself I don't get much from churches. It all seems a bit to stylized, a bit too nice, a bit too overtly Christian and I wish I could say that I have listened to intellectually and spiritually enriching sermons, but this is not the case. Most are simply dreadful. Good for a five minute snooze which I see many in the churches I have attended doing.

But if you have found a safe, loving, caring place to worship then you are to be congratulated. Thanks for responding.
 
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abjon is offline abjon Post #9  July 9,2010, 5:58pm

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rix wrote :
Personally, I believe going to church is not essentially necessary for spiritual growth. Spiritual growth is very personal, and normally takes place through the discipline of private study and contemplation. But, what church should provide, is a sense of community. And ideally, it should be a sort of "hospital for sinners," since we all foul-up and make mistakes, and not a place where self-righteous people play the game of spiritual one-up-manship. And I believe that is what Christ intended, since he offered mercy and grace to those who stumbled, but reserved his harshest judgment for those who hypocritically passed judgment on others.
I think you should become a minister, start a church, hopefully somewhere near where I live and I will go to your church. I really like what you said above and wish that more churches were a kind of hospital for sinners rather than just one more arena in which the saved, the righteous, the sanctified, throw stones at the sinners or do their best to make their burdens even heavier to bear.
 
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peppermint21 is offline peppermint21 Post #10  July 9,2010, 6:33pm
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abjon wrote :
Hey, yourself!

Your church sounds wonderful and I like the idea that you are encouraged to comment on the sermons over the Net. I have to say though that if I attended a church early in the morning overlooking a beach I would be very, very tempted to get outside and commune with God in nature.

I gather you must go to a very big church if it can have services at different times of the day on Sunday. I think this is good, too. I never could figure out why service at 11 a.m. was somehow seen as a more holy hour than some other hour.

Thank you for sharing your church experience with all of us.
Hey Hey!

I actually go to a pretty moderate sized church and I'll be honest...I don't like the regular 11am service. The personality of the people there is just completely different (stuffier...probably because they're in an actual building). I thought it was just me, but the pastor's wife said the same thing to me once. I've just found my niche in an organization with leadership I respect and trust. I think that's what a church should be.

You wouldn't have had to leave to get to the beach at my church since we're right on the sand...in the sand actually. Service is frequently stopped for a particularly beautiful sunrise or jumping dolphin. Dogs, ferrets, squirrels and whatever else are welcome to attend. It's not perfect by any means...there are some people there that drive me up a wall, but the people that are there are mostly genuine and not there to be entertained.

That's the reason I don't like the Mega-Church concept...if I want to see a show, I'll buy theater tickets, but it seems to work for some people.

That's a good point about 11am...that seems to be the go-to hour across denominations and I have no clue why.
 
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