ThomasM is offline ThomasM Post #1  January 23,2010, 2:56pm
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When it comes to matters theological, why do we believe as we do? We choose our beliefs. That may seem an obvious statement. Still, many people see their belief system as something that exists as external from themselves. When people approach their beliefs as though they are relying on an infallible external authority, it often creates a more rigid and inflexible point of view, even intolerance. Here are a few quotations to consider:

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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #2  January 23,2010, 5:23pm
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Sometimes, Thomas, I wish you would share more of who you are so that it would be easier to understand why you need to bring things up to be so controversial. You know I have a deep respect for you and honour your right to confront issues. But when you base all the beginnings on quotes of others, it is not different to me than those who throw out scripture without taking the time to say how that scripture impacted their hearts.

You use quotes about beliefs here that I think you know will be explosive to many of the people on here. The emotions raised in starting at the point of anger, can cloud issues and discourage some who may really have strong feelings and ideas on the issue but are tired from confrontations in their daily life.

This is a topic I would love to address right now because of how beliefs do effect our lives -- but I don't want to discuss it from the prespective of judging someone else's right to their belief system. I don't want to pick apart the words believe and faith since both of those words impact my spiritual life.

In a way, I am disappointed that this topic came up like this because I would love to be able to interact with others to come to an undersatnding of these things as a mature growing into community.

I will simply say this. When a child grows to the teen years, the "I want to do it myself" phase of childhood moves into the invisible "I can do anything " phase of the teen years with the unnecessary risks and unwillingness to acknowledge anymore authority than necessary. As that self grows though, there comes an awareness of the need for community and the regulations of a society in order for people to work together. As the person continues to grow, they learn the right to question and the reality of choice and empowerement to look at the system and perhaps challenge it from a place of greater wisdom. At each stage, including the last, beliefs support and fuel the level of passion in which you move forward. You can get stuck in any point in it and I am sure this is not complete.

The point is, authority and community come from a place of beliefs -- and what people believe, including you, affect how we interact with each other.

What is it that drew you to share with and challenge us here? What is it you are needing that causes you to do this? What beliefs are you living by, -- not someone else's quotes -- your personal vulnerable thoughts.
Last edited by coeuri; January 23,2010 at 5:26pm.
 
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ThomasM is offline ThomasM Post #3  January 23,2010, 8:19pm
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[FONT=Arial]Coeuri, I always value your thoughts and opinions, and your first post in this thread is no exception. Often, when I am checking out in a store, the cashier will ask me if I found everything. And, often, I will respond that I did not find world peace. That usually gets a smile.
 
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cardguy is offline cardguy Post #4  January 23,2010, 10:32pm
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I see no contradiction between the knowledge that I choose what I believe and the idea that those beliefs correspond to things that are objectively true. That is not to say that things are true just because I believe them or that everything I believe must be true, but rather that I choose my beliefs not out of some idle fancy, but because they correspond to the objective reality I observe.

Just because I can choose what to believe does not mean that all choices are equally valid or wise.
 
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meri75 is offline meri75 Post #5  January 23,2010, 11:59pm
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Thomas - thought provoking as usual!

My thoughts:

I think if you had the opportunity to discuss faith matters in person with people who have been at war for eons, I think it is likely you will find that those individuals do not enjoy the personal relationship with God that many Christians do. It can hardly be said of such people - of any faith - that they are loving their neighbour as they love themselves.

Faith can mean many things to different people. When I see faith used as a crutch, or as a means to justify the ends, then I am concerned. Faith can be mis-leading: I once read a story about a conversation which took place in the 1930s (they think), between an Aerodynamicist and a Biologist about demonstrating that the bumble bee should be incapable of flight.

The bumble bee does indeed fly! Now - this may seem really a strange thing to you for me to have written. I remember being in a conversation about the flight of the bumble bee in school, but I did not know that the bumble bee can fly. Mainland Australia does not have bumble bees. Then I relocated to Hobart, Tasmania ... and what on earth do they feed the bees here?! I'd no idea it was a bumble-bee, rather than a honey-bee! Simply stating that a thing, or an event, or even a topic of faith shouldn't technically be possible; doesn't rule it out permanently as being impossible.

I don't believe you will find any two people who exactly - exactly - share the same viewpoint on anything. Let alone such a contentious topic as religion. If you take a good look at my responses, you should be able to spot that there are a few posters who share very similar viewpoints to mine, and other topics where we are worlds apart! I believe that the fact that we do differ in our opinions and what we hold as important and not-so-important - is clear evidence that we do think for ourselves. We aren't a product of indoctrination. People who believe something only because their elders said so, or some form of indoctrination - would not be interested in shooting the breeze here with you; or anyone else outside their limited field of vision.
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #6  January 24,2010, 4:35am
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I want to share a belief - not unlike the belief of the bumblebee in inprobability, but different in that science would hold out that this belief cannot be true.

I will do it in two posts - A poem and the story behind the poem. Some may recognize it.



A Broken Wing
~1983~


“This is for you, little girl”
Large, calloused hands reach down
Cupped in their gentle depth—
A butterfly with a broken wing

A matting of leaves,
A cap of water
A quiet place—safe, protected
Just right for healing

Tender care, hovering near
“Heal, little butterfly, heal!”
A childish dream—
A butterfly flown away

You’ve grown, little girl,
You’re a woman now
And time adds creases
To tired dreams

Yet, still, little girl,
Hope reigns supreme
Fluttering in your outstretched hands
A butterfly with a broken wing.
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #7  January 24,2010, 4:40am
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In the poem above, these are the words of a young mom living in a relationship where she has come to find her dream of marriage a façade of power and disintegration of all the gifts she had thought she had to bring to the marriage.

They go back to an event when she was a small child. One day while watching the lawnmower person, I guess next door, mow the lawn, he stopped and picked something up. He cupped it carefully in his hand and brought it to that little girl -- a butterfly with a broken wing. The little girl ran to get a container and he helped her get leaves from the tree nearby. She also added a lid of water and, gently placing the butterfly inside, she took it to the shed where animals couldn't get it. She took care of that little butterfly and one day, when she went to see it, the butterfly was gone, not dead, totally gone. In the mind of the child, the butterfly had flown away.

Years past, in grade 4 the abuse that was in her home became part of her school life when her more popular older sister brought the ridicule into the neighbourhod and school setting. She went on through school learning to be more reticient in relationships but finding her way to areas of interest where she formed good relationships until once again her family moved leaving them behind.

And yet, though tainted by fear of damnation, her belief in a loving and merciful God led her to keep trying to make a difference, to reading books that told her that what she experienced was not all of life, to watch for models of a different way of treating children then she experienced, to sing and make music for God, to befriend those on the edges and to see a purpose in church of being there for those who were seeking some kind of hope when the world was not all it should have been.

She married the man of her parents' dreams, continuing her role of trying to make them better too. The little rescuer grew up believing that if she was patient enough, even butterflies with broken wings could fly, so she grew up believing that even within this world where she felt crippled and unworthy, there was hope that somewhere ahead she would find her own wings.

The little girl grew up into a woman that people saw as strong even when she seemed to only be able to feel her weaknesses. She grew up believing that she counted, that no matter what was said to make her feel like she was a misfit and impossibly clutzy in relationships, that her life mattered to the Creator. She grew up with a sense of hope that she was time and again able to sing, not only into her darkness but into the darkness of others. She still struggles with the things in her spirit that are not totally healed but she is still a firm believer in a loving and merciful God.

That little girl grew up to be me and that childlike faith holds me up even as I live in the mature world of hearing the needs of others through the recognition that I will fall and get up, I will experience for myself and probably live out prejudices to others. But somewhere in me, the little girl still lives rejoicing in the butterfly that her heart told her flew away. O, I know the science, but that butterfly gave the little girl a gift to take into her life that has stood her well over time.

Our beliefs do affect the way we hear the Bible. I know the actuality of what may have happened to the butterfly. But for what that childlike belief gave to me -- the belief that with support and encouragement, my life can be lived in a way that glorifies God through my relationship with others -- is not tied to science. It is tied to the living experience of hope that continues to hold me up even today.

"For whoever shall give you a cup of water in my name....." Mark 9:41 Some could argue my use of that because of the context but my heart has learned that it is tied to the sheep and the goats and the fast of justice God asked for in Isaiah. And it was sealed by the gift of a butterfly with a broken wing. Who knows when your action may be a message of God to someone else? I wonder what that man would think if he knew the lifelong gift he was giving that day to a little child?
Last edited by coeuri; January 24,2010 at 4:53am.
 
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chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #8  January 24,2010, 5:47am
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Coeuri, you always have the most incredible posts.

[quote=ThomasM;861530]I see a world where people do not share their humanity. I see a world separated by tribes. The tribe can be so many things, including our religion. So often in this world, we are separated by our religious doctrines.
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ThomasM is offline ThomasM Post #9  January 24,2010, 8:06am
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[FONT=Calibri]I would like to add more to my response of yesterday evening in regard to why I am posting some threads that are clearly going to be controversial and even upsetting to some people.
 
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cardguy is offline cardguy Post #10  January 24,2010, 11:47am
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ThomasM wrote :
Joseph Campbell said that we need a worldwide mythology. That is one way to say it, and I agree. It is not to say that each person cannot honor his own religious tradition. Bishop Spong said that he honored his tradition, but he walked through his tradition. We need a dream for humanity. We need a dream for the planet. I believe that it is time that we step beyond our insular traditions and see that we are all part of a greater whole.
Where does truth fit into that picture? It sounds like what is being said is that you can believe whatever you want, as long as you don't *really* believe it. I do not see it as honoring to a religious tradition when someone pays lip service to it and then goes about their business like it has no significance. I don't see it as honest to pretend that mutually exclusive beliefs are not mutually exclusive, and I see a certain irony in telling everyone who stands by truth claims that their beliefs are not true in the name of inclusiveness.

I think that in almost all of the major world religions, certainly Christianity, we are all seen as part of a greater whole. God's message is not only for a certain people, a certain time, or a certain place, but for everyone. So the disagreement is not in whether there is a spiritual message for everyone, but in what that message is. You are trying to set your beliefs apart as transcendent, but really they and not fundamentally different: you have an idea of what spirituality should be that you think is for all people.
 
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