Why did God command the killing of children?


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kevin76 is offline kevin76 Post #1  October 14,2009, 1:30pm
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I'm starting this thread by request, because the topic came up in an unrelated thread and we didn't want that thread to get hijacked, and also didn't want to ignore this topic.
Solution: a new thread for the new topic. I'll edit this post in a second to copy and paste the relevant post from the other thread.


***EDIT Copied and pasted from other thread

tumbleweed wrote :
.... and for you to say its alright to kill the babies?? isnt that what hitler did? and isnt there i little story about moses? why didnt his mother just kill him instead of letting him live in a fourgn land,,,, you see when you start to fabricate storys about things they dont fit together vary well,
.....
The morality of killing children is a valid question, if you really want to talk about it, but is off the topic of this thread and I don't want to chase too many rabbits here.
Then again, you did start this thread didn't you...? So I'll go ahead and attempt an answer.

Did you really bring up Hitler? Thank you, Godwin.
First, Hitler is not God. He had his own purposes, and they were wrong. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.
Second, your analogy of Moses doesn't really fit either. He was born in a foreign land (at that time his people had no land of their own), he was raised by his mother (remember she was chosen as his nursemaid,) and lived to a good old age among his family and his people. How is that in any way even similar?
Finally, are you suggesting that the Israelites should have adopted hundreds of thousands of orphans, and that those children would have been better off living with the people who killed their parents than going home to be with God in heaven? It was a harsh and brutal time in history, and we can't even begin to feel what people went through living in those times, even under the best circumstances. I for one am not willing to stand in judgment and impose my morality on people who lived thousands of years ago in another land. I'd rather deal with what's going on in the world here and now.
Last edited by kevin76; October 14,2009 at 1:33pm. Reason: Added post from other thread
 
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meri75 is offline meri75 Post #2  October 16,2009, 7:17pm
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Hmm ... did God command the killing of children? I'm confused. I always thought it was evil being removed?
 
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MsMolly is offline MsMolly Post #3  October 19,2009, 4:44pm
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I am confused. Where in the Bible does it say that God commanded the killing of children?
 
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kevin76 is offline kevin76 Post #4  October 20,2009, 9:06am
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meri75 wrote :
Hmm ... did God command the killing of children? I'm confused. I always thought it was evil being removed?
MsMolly wrote :
I am confused. Where in the Bible does it say that God commanded the killing of children?
I believe the reference was to Joshua invading the land of Canaan, when they were told to wipe out all the inhabitants. Or later to King Saul who was told to "leave nothing alive"

1 Samuel 15
1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
 
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notyet is offline notyet Post #5  October 20,2009, 1:27pm
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not commanding the killing of children- per se- but the mass killing of children...

we don't often think about it but approximately 2,000 years after creation, we are told that god sent a world wide flood- destroying everything and everyone. after 2,000 years of breeding and living to be hundreds of years old, there must have been ten of millions of people alive. and millions of children.

but evidently only one person found favor with god- noah.

we are told that noah was a righteous man. the implication is that noah found favor because he was righteous. and that he was the only righteous one on the planet.

interestingly, "innocent" children are not mentioned. but then again:

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (romans 3:10-18 quoting/referencing Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20; Psalm 5:9; Psalm 140:3; Psalm 10:7; Isaiah 59:7,8; Psalm 36:1)

ultimately, the bible teaches (i believe) that there is not/was not/nor will there ever be anyone righteous apart from god.

not even "innocent" new born babies. we are all born under a curse.

ever wonder what happend to those babies at the time of the flood? they were not on the boat! there were eight on that ark: noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. that's it!

what is amazing to me is not that god has killed countless "innocent" children through the ages or even commanded that killing.

what is amazing to me is that he has extended grace to all of us- even the grossest sinner- (even me) and allowed any of us to live at all. that we are alive today is evident of god's grace. he is under no compulsion to allow any of us to live another second. but he does. because he is gracious.
Last edited by notyet; October 20,2009 at 6:08pm. Reason: typo and clarity in paragraph seven
 
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FaithNGod is offline FaithNGod Post #6  October 20,2009, 2:05pm
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notyet wrote :
not commanding the killing of children- per se- but the mass killing of children...

we don't often think about it but approximately 2,000 years after creation, we are told that god sent a world wide flood- destroying everything and everyone. after 2,000 years of breeding and living to be hundreds of years old, there must have been ten of millions of people alive. and millions of children.

but evidently only one person found favor with god- noah.

we are told that noah was a righteous man. the implication is that noah found favor because he was righteous. and that he was the only righteous one on the planet.

interestingly, "innocent" children are not mentioned. but then again:

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (romans 3:10-18 quoting/referencing Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20; Psalm 5:9; Psalm 140:3; Psalm 10:7; Isaiah 59:7,8; Psalm 36:1)

ultimately, the bible does teach (i believe) that there is/was/nor will there be anyone righteous people apart from god.

not even "innocent" new born babies. we are all born under a curse.

ever wonder what happend to those babies at the time of the flood? they were not on the boat! there were eight on that ark: noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. that's it!

what is amazing to me is not that god has killed countless "innocent" children through the ages or even commanded that killing.

what is amazing to me is that he has extended grace to all of us- even the grossest sinner- (even me) and allowed any of us to live at all. that we are alive today is evident of god's grace. he is under no compulsion to allow any of us to live another second. but he does. because he is gracious.
Totally excellent response Dude! Right on
 
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kevin76 is offline kevin76 Post #7  October 20,2009, 5:24pm
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notyet wrote :
not commanding the killing of children- per se- but the mass killing of children...

we don't often think about it but approximately 2,000 years after creation, we are told that god sent a world wide flood- destroying everything and everyone. after 2,000 years of breeding and living to be hundreds of years old, there must have been ten of millions of people alive. and millions of children.

but evidently only one person found favor with god- noah.

we are told that noah was a righteous man. the implication is that noah found favor because he was righteous. and that he was the only righteous one on the planet.

interestingly, "innocent" children are not mentioned. but then again:

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (romans 3:10-18 quoting/referencing Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20; Psalm 5:9; Psalm 140:3; Psalm 10:7; Isaiah 59:7,8; Psalm 36:1)

ultimately, the bible does teach (i believe) that there is/was/nor will there be anyone righteous people apart from god.

not even "innocent" new born babies. we are all born under a curse.

ever wonder what happend to those babies at the time of the flood? they were not on the boat! there were eight on that ark: noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives. that's it!

what is amazing to me is not that god has killed countless "innocent" children through the ages or even commanded that killing.

what is amazing to me is that he has extended grace to all of us- even the grossest sinner- (even me) and allowed any of us to live at all. that we are alive today is evident of god's grace. he is under no compulsion to allow any of us to live another second. but he does. because he is gracious.
what is amazing to me is that he has extended grace to all of us- even the grossest sinner

This I can agree with 100%. The grace of God is an amazing thing - and most amazing of all is what he went through to allow us to be cleansed of our sin, while still remaining righteous in his judgments.

On the question of the children, however, I think our viewpoints may diverge a little.

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
...edited for length...
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
...edited for length...
their tongues practice deceit."
...edited for length...
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
...edited for length...
(romans 3:10-18 quoting/referencing Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20; Psalm 5:9; Psalm 140:3; Psalm 10:7; Isaiah 59:7,8; Psalm 36:1)

Has a newborn baby turned away?
Does the tongue of a baby practice deceit?
Are their feet swift to shed blood?
Again, I think in the case of the flood the children were washed away as a mercy. Can you imagine Noah and his wife adopting every child in the world?
It's possible he even closed the wombs of every woman on earth for a few years, so that there were no babies at the time of the flood. He has closed the wombs of the wicked before:
Genesis 20:18 for the LORD had closed up every womb in Abimelech's household because of Abraham's wife Sarah.

We don't really know how many children may or may not have died in the flood, but we do know that the judgment of God is righteous, and he was angry with Israel when they tried to claim that the children were punished for the sins of their ancestors:

Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
...edited for length...
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.
10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things [b] 11 (though the father has done none of them):
...edited for length...
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.
14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: ...edited for length...
He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he ... did what was wrong among his people.

19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. 25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

Ezekiel says God judges each person for their own actions, and their own actions only. Not for Adam's actions, and not for Eve's actions, and not for their parent's actions. For their own. And he was rather upset at Israel for saying differently.
Those who are not yet old enough to make their own decisions and intentionally do what is wrong have no sin to be punished for.
Now it's true that every human who has lived long enough to make right or wrong choices has made some wrong choices and fallen from grace. Of those 'men' (adult humans) who are accountable for their actions, none are innocent. All have fallen short.
But I get the impression that Jesus considered children to be innocent. He called the children to himself and blessed them. He said that to enter the kingdom we must become like them.

That's why I don't think the children were punished for wickedness.
Because they were taken into eternal glory - how is that a punishment? More like a blessing. They got to skip over all the suffering they would have endured if they'd been forced to live on earth for a full lifetime.

That's the way I read it, anyway. I'm pretty sure I don't have it all worked out just yet.
Last edited by kevin76; October 20,2009 at 5:32pm. Reason: emphasis added
 
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Preachers_Kid is offline Preachers_Kid Post #8  October 20,2009, 7:10pm
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kevin76 wrote :
what is amazing to me is that he has extended grace to all of us- even the grossest sinner

This I can agree with 100%. The grace of God is an amazing thing - and most amazing of all is what he went through to allow us to be cleansed of our sin, while still remaining righteous in his judgments.

On the question of the children, however, I think our viewpoints may diverge a little.

As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
...edited for length...
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
...edited for length...
their tongues practice deceit."
...edited for length...
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
...edited for length...
(romans 3:10-18 quoting/referencing Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20; Psalm 5:9; Psalm 140:3; Psalm 10:7; Isaiah 59:7,8; Psalm 36:1)

Has a newborn baby turned away?
Does the tongue of a baby practice deceit?
Are their feet swift to shed blood?
Again, I think in the case of the flood the children were washed away as a mercy. Can you imagine Noah and his wife adopting every child in the world?
It's possible he even closed the wombs of every woman on earth for a few years, so that there were no babies at the time of the flood. He has closed the wombs of the wicked before:
Genesis 20:18 for the LORD had closed up every womb in Abimelech's household because of Abraham's wife Sarah.

We don't really know how many children may or may not have died in the flood, but we do know that the judgment of God is righteous, and he was angry with Israel when they tried to claim that the children were punished for the sins of their ancestors:

Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
5 "Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
...edited for length...
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.
10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things [b] 11 (though the father has done none of them):
...edited for length...
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.
14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: ...edited for length...
He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he ... did what was wrong among his people.

19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. 25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

Ezekiel says God judges each person for their own actions, and their own actions only. Not for Adam's actions, and not for Eve's actions, and not for their parent's actions. For their own. And he was rather upset at Israel for saying differently.
Those who are not yet old enough to make their own decisions and intentionally do what is wrong have no sin to be punished for.
Now it's true that every human who has lived long enough to make right or wrong choices has made some wrong choices and fallen from grace. Of those 'men' (adult humans) who are accountable for their actions, none are innocent. All have fallen short.
But I get the impression that Jesus considered children to be innocent. He called the children to himself and blessed them. He said that to enter the kingdom we must become like them.

That's why I don't think the children were punished for wickedness.
Because they were taken into eternal glory - how is that a punishment? More like a blessing. They got to skip over all the suffering they would have endured if they'd been forced to live on earth for a full lifetime.

That's the way I read it, anyway. I'm pretty sure I don't have it all worked out just yet.
But before law and in law before Christ wasn't it lawful to hold the family including wife and children guilty for the sins of the head of their household. For the child to and wife to be responsible even for debts owed by a husband. If so even infants were guilty at conception?
 
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Cloud_Strife is offline Cloud_Strife Post #9  October 21,2009, 2:00am

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Why debate the fate of newborn children? God will judge rightly and justly. In the end you will see it.

Do you plan on becoming judge someday? I don't see the point in trying to understand an aspect of God which will not be revealed until he sits on the throne of judgement.

Will we not hear it on the last day? Will our ears not hear the very judgements that pass?

Who knows the names in the book of life other than Christ? Who can flip the pages and check to see who made it? Who knows the intricacies of what happens to the dead? Who knows if they hear the word of God from the grave and are given the opportunity to turn to Christ? Who knows what opportunities the unborn have? Didn't Able's blood cry out even though he was dead? Perhaps judgement of the dead is not so cut and dry as we make it....

One thing I do know. We are in the land of the living, we are given a message for the living, not a message for the dead. Let's worry not about how God judges, because we know God is just, true, and faithful. Instead let us consider the message for the living he has given us. Let our hearts and minds dwells on what is meant for us. Then on that last day we will see how God judges and be amazed at his awesome wisdom, mercy, and love.
 
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dwreese182 is offline dwreese182 Post #10  October 21,2009, 4:19am
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Guess this would be a good conversation had a world-wide flood ever happened. Curious where all this water would have came from to cover "even the tallest peaks"......oh...right.....it was magic. I also believe that there are far more species on earth that could ever had fit on a single boat. Forget the kids being "keeled by god", because it simply didn't happen. If something of the sorts did happen it was a localized event caused by a natural disaster....nothing magical about it. Just a story used to explain something they couldn't understand at the time.
 
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