cloudedleopard is offline cloudedleopard Post #1  August 15,2009, 3:41am

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I can't deny how passionately many feel about this topic of submission. But I don't want to start the conversation off by pre-judging where everyone is at on this topic. What I'm looking for is to set a starting point for sincere and God honoring discussion on the topic.

Adding to this, I have much that I believe about the topic, but I don't want to lay the ground work for a debate so I will leave my own thoughts till later.

Let me just start things out with a few questions:

1) When you think of the word "submission", what comes to mind?

2) What thoughts flow to the top of your mind, and what images does it conjure up?

3) Does this word bring back any memories (good or bad)?

4) How does the word and these thoughts that come to mind make you feel?

I realize that to answer these questions you may need a baseline of context to answer them in. Please try to be as broad with the topic as the word is in your mind. But if it brings up powerful emotions or memories, please don't hesitate to address those specific areas.

I also realize that this is in the context of a dating advice website, so that may predispose us to thinking about the word as it relates to dating/marriage, but to me that's the perfect place to discuss it and it's broader meanings.

And I'd like everyone, before responding to what someone else posts and starting an open back-and-forth discussion, please answer my questions here in the OP so we are all starting at the same base point. Also, please only bring your own opinions to the table when answering these first questions, do not address them as a response to "women","men","christian men","christian women","what everyone else thinks",etc. Please try to keep your responses to what you yourself think on the topic. This way we can avoid having unnecessary controversy at the beginning of the thread. Once we get a handful of responses to the OP I'll respond with my own answers and open it up for discussions and then we can discuss how our cultural views this topic to. (by cultural I mean our countries, churches, groups of friends, etc)

Forgive me if this is sounding like I'm a group leader, I know I'm a newbie and I always like to respect existing leaders, veterans, and protocols. I just wanted to set a tone for this specific thread. That's all.

Looking forward to the discussion, Paul
 
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FaithNGod is offline FaithNGod Post #2  August 15,2009, 5:53am
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Paul, thanks for bringing up this topic.

Submission requires two parties and a responsibility by both that is for the good of the unit especially if we are referring to marriage.

It is a practice that if performed properly will bring two people closer and not farther apart. The root of submission for both parties is humility and not power.

First I want to share with you a couple negitive examples of what submission looked like in my life growing up.

My dad was over bearing. He would use the scripture for children to obey their parents. He used this to try to control his children. Now to be fair he had 5 sons and one daughter. We were a hand full and out of controll. But even as adults when we were out of his house he would still try the same tactic to get his way. He was a big time minipulator.
The one thing he neglected to share with us from scripture was for fathers to not provoke your children to anger but bring them up in the respect and teaching of the Lord. It is easier to tell someone what to do rather than being the example and shewing them.
I had struggled with this attitude but by the Holy spirit now an free today from this mind set. My brother who pretends that he is a pastor of a church still has this lording over his family attitude. Both of his grown boys are in rehabs and been in jail.

The second negitive example is what happens when training a animal. Their is forced submission to break the spirit of the animal.
Neither of these examples are productive in a marriage relationship and would also cause harm.
Men arent the only ones who use forced submission in marriage to get their way. Women use their bodies in a different way that has power over a man. They with hold their selves sexually to punish or get their way also or to make their husband submit to their wishes. Like men who use their strength and larger frames to intimadate to get submission from their wives.

All of thses forms are harmful and I dont recomend practicing any of them.

Now for the good stuff. I was thinking what is the best example of how our attitude should be when it comes to submission.
It comes when Jesus was being baptised. The heavens opened and God the father said this is His beloved son in whom He is well pleased.
If in marriage as men if we could keep this attitude that I am well pleased in my wife and she is my beloved and really treat her with this preciousness what would her response be. We would always be looking out for her best and want to protect her.
The next example is when in the garden Jesus ask if the cup could be passed from Him. He knew what was comming this is why he sweat drops of blood mingled with His sweat.
But in submission to His Father He said not my will but yours be done.
Where would we be if Jesus decided not to submit to the cross?
The last thought on submission is the attitude to go the extra mile or to give more than that is asked of us.
When I was in the military they train you to go the extra mile because your life depends on it. If we had the attitude in marriage that going the extra mile our life depends on it we would faithfully do that more.
Last edited by FaithNGod; August 16,2009 at 6:10am.
 
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cloudedleopard is offline cloudedleopard Post #3  August 15,2009, 6:53am

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Paul
Last edited by cloudedleopard; August 16,2009 at 11:07am.
 
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CreolePrincess is offline CreolePrincess Post #4  August 15,2009, 7:50am
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Submission to me is allowing yourself to willingly be lead with no objection or protest. It is not having the final say in matters. The issue that first pops in my mind is that no one is perfect, and in some instances, leaders actually can't lead. I would hate to have a relationship where my partner would make decision independently of me or worse, ask me my opinion and then do what he wants to in the first place. I bring that up, because being submissive means giving up a certain amount of control, and well, the control freaks out there in the world have problems with this. On the flip side, I wouldn't want to dominate the relationship. A balance or near balance IMHO would be best. Of course, this is just my feelings on submission, so I could be way off here on what it truly means.
 
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CreolePrincess is offline CreolePrincess Post #5  August 15,2009, 7:54am
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For some reason, and I don't know why, my answer got modded. I didn't think there was anything inappropriately said in my response. There's a saying for that in the navy: "Oh well!"
 
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cloudedleopard is offline cloudedleopard Post #6  August 15,2009, 8:12am

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CreolePrincess wrote :
For some reason, and I don't know why, my answer got modded. I didn't think there was anything inappropriately said in my response. There's a saying for that in the navy: "Oh well!"
it seems eharmony's system flags certain messages for modding, it'll probably show up soon, I'll wait for it, thanks for posting!
 
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natej30 is offline natej30 Post #7  August 15,2009, 9:49am
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I guess I see the Biblical meaning of submission the wife following the husbands lead in things. And, if the husband feels that God is leading the husband in some direction, the wife should pray about it, and unless she gets a strong feeling from God, should follow the husbands lead.

that's my thought on submission.
 
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last12C is offline last12C Post #8  August 15,2009, 12:04pm
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I think that it is imperative to let go of the modern definition of submission with all of its attending baggage and negative connotations before a truly edifying conversation can take place on the subject of Biblical submission. You must also not attempt to deal with the concept out of context to the complete Scriptural definition of marriage because true biblical submission does not exist outside of the institution.

Biblical submission is the voluntary yielding of a responsibility, not of self, not of respect, not of worth. It is a conscious, loving dedication to preserving harmony in a marriage. If you keep the instructions given to husbands foremost in your minds while thinking about the submission of a wife you will see that they compliment one another - that one cannot exist without the other. What motivates both is love and respect and a desire for unity. Neither spouse is called to either abusive domination or denigration.

A Christian marriage is the very image on earth of our relationship with God through Christ. There are no negative connotations to be found in that image. It is one of sacrificial love and respect and humble devotion and peace and order. If you cannot see wrong in that relationship, then you should see no wrong in the marriage relationship as described in Scripture.
Last edited by last12C; August 15,2009 at 12:49pm.
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #9  August 15,2009, 2:42pm
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First off, CL, this is a great start for a thread. Especially one like this. It gives some clear guidelines that, if we “submit” to, provide an avenue for a good discussion on a difficult subject. I am going to stay with your format, which is good and answer your questions.

1) When you think of the word "submission", what comes to mind?

Coming from a variety of roles in my life, submission has a variety of meanings. In each, the similarities lie in letting go of something so that another can give the input in the matter .

2) What thoughts flow to the top of your mind, and what images does it conjure up?

In college , it conjures up the image of submiting a paper to a prof for grading. In teaching and business, submitting a piece of writing to a paper or a unit plan to a principal. In marriage it conjures up both images of fear and judgment as well as images of united and caring leadership within a home. In faith, it conjures up images of trust and hope in a being greater than myself.

3) Does this word bring back any memories (good or bad)?

I will just answer, yes in both directions. I do find that this discussion gives me the jitters, but I also know that it is a real issue that we struggle with so am willing to play my part in it.

4) How does the word and these thoughts that come to mind make you feel?

I guess I answered it in the last question . It gives me the jitters. Even when it came to submitting a paper for review in university, the power of that submission to help me grow as a student and writer depended strongly on whether the professor had a cut and dried view of the subject that allowed no alternative opinions (you had to read his mind and parrot or your grade went down) or whether the professor was open to you being a thinker in your role as a student.
Last edited by coeuri; August 15,2009 at 2:45pm.
 
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cloudedleopard is offline cloudedleopard Post #10  August 15,2009, 5:55pm

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coeuri wrote :
First off, CL, this is a great start for a thread. Especially one like this. It gives some clear guidelines that, if we “submit” to, provide an avenue for a good discussion on a difficult subject. I am going to stay with your format, which is good and answer your questions.

1) When you think of the word "submission", what comes to mind?

Coming from a variety of roles in my life, submission has a variety of meanings. In each, the similarities lie in letting go of something so that another can give the input in the matter .

2) What thoughts flow to the top of your mind, and what images does it conjure up?

In college , it conjures up the image of submiting a paper to a prof for grading. In teaching and business, submitting a piece of writing to a paper or a unit plan to a principal. In marriage it conjures up both images of fear and judgment as well as images of united and caring leadership within a home. In faith, it conjures up images of trust and hope in a being greater than myself.

3) Does this word bring back any memories (good or bad)?

I will just answer, yes in both directions. I do find that this discussion gives me the jitters, but I also know that it is a real issue that we struggle with so am willing to play my part in it.

4) How does the word and these thoughts that come to mind make you feel?

I guess I answered it in the last question . It gives me the jitters. Even when it came to submitting a paper for review in university, the power of that submission to help me grow as a student and writer depended strongly on whether the professor had a cut and dried view of the subject that allowed no alternative opinions (you had to read his mind and parrot or your grade went down) or whether the professor was open to you being a thinker in your role as a student.
Thanks, this is exactly the format of response I was hoping for! I'm not going to comment on any of it yet though, I'm hoping we can get a few more people to input their reactions to the word/idea itself.
 
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