cloudedleopard is offline cloudedleopard Post #1  August 15,2009, 1:19am

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I just wanted to open a separate thread here to address some of the concerns tumbleweed brought up in the other thread.

To recap what tumbleweed wrote:
wrote :
not shur of the verse but in revolations i believe it state the the knowlege will be given to all who want it
wrote :
in chapter 22 of revoltions it says,,i jesus have sent my angelto give you this massage fotr the churches, i am both the source of david and the heir to his throne. i am the bright morning star. the spirit and the bride say,"come" let each one who hears them say,"come" let the thirsty ones come-anyone who wants to.let them come and drink the water of life without charge
wrote :
?? test , haveing trouble with exceptance,, in chapter 2 of revolation it also talks about the manna that will be given to all that want it, my understanding of what manna is , is that it is knowledge from god, the thing that will make you understand, this is part of the award that i believe you will be given as a faithful follower
First I just want to warn you that God has heavily used metaphors in the book of Revelation so it is a harder book to interpret that the plainly spoken books of the bible.

Secondly, the main portion of Revelation is a book of prophecy, and prophecy is mostly written to encourage and support those who are going through the events spoken about. The interpretation will be clear to those who are going through it, even though it remains a mystery to us.

Having said that, there are many things in revelation which have other roots in scriptures and therefore don't need interpretation because they are clearly defined in other verses. The meaning of the water of life is one of these things, and the water of life stands for the word of God which has both the power to bring you into salvation (along with faith), and it also has the power to mature you as a Christian.

As for the "hidden manna". Let me first clarify that it does not say that it will be given to all who want it, but only to those who overcome. It is promised as one of the rewards for overcoming (revelation ch 2-3). I do not know for sure if I can interpret this correctly for you, but here is what I have seen so far:

a) The most important part of overcoming is not what the rewards look like, but the actual overcoming itself. We know the character and the nature of the one who is giving the rewards, so let us press forward as if we have not received the gifts, because we know the character of him who calls us to overcome, and we know how much greater the gifts of heaven are than the gifts of earth.

b) In general, the problems talked about in these verses are not personal problems, but problems in the local churches. Christ speaks about false teachers, false teachings and the pride of settling for the riches of this world instead of the riches of God. So it is really a call for churches as groups to overcome, not just individuals.

Let's remember Ezra, if we take the same attitude every one of us, we will be a strong body, able to stand against these things that need overcome:

The good hand of his God was on Ezra because he set his heart to study, to do, and to teach God's word” (Ezra 7:9-10).

c) The nature of hidden manna, is that it is hidden. Whatever it is, those who receive it may not be able to tell you how it arrived or exactly what they did to earn such a reward. (Just like those in the desert and the earthly manna which just fell from heaven and was on the ground)

d) My personal beliefs is that water of life applies to the clear words of God that anyone who has a humble heart can easily understand, and that hidden manna is a separate gift that may come in many forms, but they all have to do with seeing, hearing, or understanding the things of God which he has kept a mystery to others.

Ok, I have a lot more to share about the beginning and ending of Revelation with you all, but I'm cutting this short for brevity and to discuss these things I've already brought up.
 
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tumbleweed is offline tumbleweed Post #2  August 15,2009, 9:17am
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i want to thank you for this tread, i agree with what you are saying, i also think that revolation is one of the most missunderstud books, it was writen by a man in prison god had inspired his words , he had to write it in a way that the athoritys wouldnt see it for what it was, so he used terms that the people that he had intended it for would understand, some of the stuff ill never understand but there is a lot in revolations that is talked about in many other parts of the bible it has routs that go back to tha begining with the tree of life, if one were to do a time line on revolation one would find its not an overnight thing but is close to 2,000 years? not real shur on exact time but it dose talk about the 1,000 years of peace , kings rising and falling and so on, i think if hitler had read revolations he would have known were the ark of the covenant was and not spent so much time and effert looking for it,
 
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FaithNGod is offline FaithNGod Post #3  August 16,2009, 6:57am
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Hey guys, I am not looking for debate or to comment on the whole book of Revelation but would like to share a thought of mine. I had a jehova witness challenge me in the God ship of Christ. So this is what I came up with. I hope it helps those like it helped me.

First they believe that Jesus is not God but a god. This would make him seperate from God and make him a little god or a heavenly being. Well in Exodus 20:4 God commands-3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

As you can see that He commands not to bow down to anything in heaven. That would include a little god wouldn't it.
Jump to the back of the bible where we have a picture of the heavenly realm in Revelations.
 
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FaithNGod is offline FaithNGod Post #4  August 16,2009, 6:57am
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Revelation 5



1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.-----------------



Here is simular terms used that are in Exodus. But it tells us ---------------------------------


the the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals ------------------------------


We all know this refers to Jesus.



8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;---------------------------------



Here we see the Lamb given worship and a bit more description to who He is.--------------------



for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood ------------------------------------



Skiping ahead for the sake of space. read the whole passage in its entirety. It is a great chapter.--------------------------------------------------



12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. ------------------------------------------------------------



Here we have the climax of worship given equally to Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb. The same terms used to not worship in Exodus is used in worship here referring to the Lamb.------------------------------


So If God commanded to not worship small gods or heavenly beings, God would not allow worship in heaven to the lamb. This proves to me without a shaddow of doubt that The Lamb of God is God and worthy of our worship. --------------------------------------------------


Incase anyone has doubts or are challenged like I was now you can be equiped to stand on your convictions.
Last edited by FaithNGod; August 16,2009 at 7:15am.
 
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tumbleweed is offline tumbleweed Post #5  August 16,2009, 6:52pm
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weather or not jesus was god or the son of god can be left to debait , exadus was a long time befor jesus came into the pitcher so weather or not this afects jesus can be left to debait, but god himself did come in a vision to introduse his son and said how prowd he was of him, in the new testament jesus said that he was given the athority of "THE KINGDOM OF GOD" now the kingdom of god was a new thing never talked about befor, now this is what i believe,, jesus was a man in the flesh and spirit, this was done for a lot of reasons,, but jesus was also more than just that, he pasesed the holy spirit, and the rest, well im just going to say im not shur,, i do know that clearly if you want to get to god you have to go thru the son, this is stated many times in the new testament and ill stand gy that, so if you believe the new testsment you can try to call jesus by what ever you want , just remember you have to pass his judgement befor you get to god
 
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tumbleweed is offline tumbleweed Post #6  August 16,2009, 7:11pm
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FaithNGod wrote :
Revelation 5




1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.-----------------



Here is simular terms used that are in Exodus. But it tells us ---------------------------------


the the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals ------------------------------


We all know this refers to Jesus.



8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;---------------------------------



Here we see the Lamb given worship and a bit more description to who He is.--------------------



for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood ------------------------------------



Skiping ahead for the sake of space. read the whole passage in its entirety. It is a great chapter.--------------------------------------------------



12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. ------------------------------------------------------------



Here we have the climax of worship given equally to Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb. The same terms used to not worship in Exodus is used in worship here referring to the Lamb.------------------------------


So If God commanded to not worship small gods or heavenly beings, God would not allow worship in heaven to the lamb. This proves to me without a shaddow of doubt that The Lamb of God is God and worthy of our worship. --------------------------------------------------



Incase anyone has doubts or are challenged like I was now you can be equiped to stand on your convictions.

you can debate the bible by useing verces and the one who knows more verces will win, knowing the word of god isnt about winning, like jesus tried to tell us when he was confronted with the law of god,jesus knew far more than the letter of the law, he had wisdom far more than anyone,, if you know the word but lack the wisdom you just have words but when you gain the the wisdom you have riches far more than gold or silver
 
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FaithNGod is offline FaithNGod Post #7  August 16,2009, 7:44pm
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tumbleweed wrote :

you can debate the bible by useing verces and the one who knows more verces will win, knowing the word of god isnt about winning, like jesus tried to tell us when he was confronted with the law of god,jesus knew far more than the letter of the law, he had wisdom far more than anyone,, if you know the word but lack the wisdom you just have words but when you gain the the wisdom you have riches far more than gold or silver

I dont know what you are talking about, but it seems to me that you are personally attacking me. What are you saying here?
 
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tumbleweed is offline tumbleweed Post #8  August 16,2009, 9:44pm
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FaithNGod wrote :
I dont know what you are talking about, but it seems to me that you are personally attacking me. What are you saying here?

no no no,, not attacking you, most of wht i said is from the bible, you see jesus would use parables for his teaching, vary rarly would he use thr letter of the law, paul would also do the same thing, both paul and jesus were sent by god to teach the word,, you see the blind man who couldnt see and was healed by jesus had no reason not to believe in what jesus was saying but on the other hand he said to the ones who thought they could see,,
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #9  August 17,2009, 4:03am
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tumbleweed wrote :

you can debate the bible by useing verces and the one who knows more verces will win, knowing the word of god isnt about winning, like jesus tried to tell us when he was confronted with the law of god,jesus knew far more than the letter of the law, he had wisdom far more than anyone,, if you know the word but lack the wisdom you just have words but when you gain the the wisdom you have riches far more than gold or silver
This is so true and should not be seen as an attack on anyone. The beauty of understanding the body of Christ is that we all can share and grow by these exchanges of what we have learned. I love the comment that says that God has the only truth and what we share with each other is the wisdom we each have so that we can come closer to that one truth which is God's.
 
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tumbleweed is offline tumbleweed Post #10  August 17,2009, 8:14am
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coeuri wrote :
This is so true and should not be seen as an attack on anyone. The beauty of understanding the body of Christ is that we all can share and grow by these exchanges of what we have learned. I love the comment that says that God has the only truth and what we share with each other is the wisdom we each have so that we can come closer to that one truth which is God's.
yes you are right in that it often take other to see what we areself cant see, it easyer to be on the outside looking in, we often need this view to see the hole pitcher, as one we stand along and will have a hard time fending off atackers but two can stand back to back and get much more in return but three is hard to break
 
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