A place where nobody knows your name????


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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #1  May 10,2009, 1:23pm
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life is an interesting journey

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I am feeling a bit frustrated. Those who represent Christ's name should be living toward the world in the attitude of Christ, wouldn't it seem? Why have those who gathered in Christ's name acted in such a way that so many outside of churches feel so negative about coming to any community of believers? I am not so into churches that I want to help them grow as such. But I do know that there are so many people searching for some form of community and the churches, at least potentially could offer that to people if we would just roll the stone away and unseal the boxes. How can we find ways to be communities that welcome and live out mercy and grace to those around us? And please, church people, don't lay this on the people coming into your church or community. That is a cop-out.


If you go to a church already, what can we do to make the church a more welcoming and caring place for those who enter there? If you don't go to a church, what would you want to find in a caring Christian community that would make it a place you would feel safe enough to be a part of for encouragement and accountability.
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TinkerKat is offline TinkerKat Post #2  May 13,2009, 6:14pm
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is thinking....dangerous, I know....

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A SPIRITUAL CONSPIRACY

On the surface of the world right now there is
war and violence and things seem dark.
But calmly and quietly, at the same time,
something else is happening underground
An inner revolution is taking place
and certain individuals are being called to a higher light.

It is a silent revolution.
From the inside out. From the ground up.
This is a Global operation.
A Spiritual Conspiracy.

There are sleeper cells in every nation on the planet.
You won’t see us on the T.V.
You won’t read about us in the newspaper
You won’t hear about us on the radio
We don’t seek any glory
We don’t wear any uniform
We come in all shapes and sizes, colors and styles

Most of us work anonymously
We are quietly working behind the scenes in
every country and culture of the world
Cities big and small, mountains and
valleys, in farms and villages, tribes and remote islands
You could pass by one of us on the street and not even notice

We go undercover
We remain behind the scenes
It is of no concern to us who takes the final credit
But simply that the work gets done

Occasionally we spot each other in the street
We give a quiet nod and continue on our way
During the day many of us pretend we have normal jobs
But behind the false storefront at night
is where the real work takes a place

Some call us the Conscious Army
We are slowly creating a new world
with the power of our minds and hearts
We follow, with passion and joy

Our orders come from from the Central Spiritual Intelligence
We are dropping soft, secret love bombs when no one is looking
Poems ~ Hugs ~ Music ~ Photography ~ Movies ~ Kind words ~
Smiles ~Meditation and prayer ~ Dance ~ Social activism ~ Websites
Blogs ~ Random acts of kindness...
We each express ourselves in our own unique ways
with our own unique gifts and talents

Be the change you want to see in the world
That is the motto that fills our hearts
We know it is the only way real transformation takes place
We know that quietly and humbly we have the
power of all the oceans combined

Our work is slow and meticulous
Like the formation of mountains
It is not even visible at first glance
And yet with it entire tectonic plates
shall be moved in the centuries to come

Love is the new religion of the 21st century
You dont have to be a highly educated person
Or have any exceptional knowledge to understand it
It comes from the intelligence of the heart
Embedded in the timeless evolutionary pulse of all human beings

Be the change you want to see in the world
Nobody else can do it for you
We are now recruiting
Perhaps you will join us
Or already have.
All are welcome
The door is open
~ author unknown

A friend had sent this to me in an email. And I hope it helps answer your question. It seemed fitting to post it here.
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #3  May 13,2009, 7:08pm
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life is an interesting journey

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I agree, it fits here.
 
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p5cents is offline p5cents Post #4  May 17,2009, 6:54pm
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coeur and tink,

 I do think the holy spirit is moving on the earth. American Christianity is bankrupt. It does not follow the Spirit, but tries to create God in the image that it wants. (I'm sure there are some who will now jump on me, but I do appreciate the discussion.)

American Christians seem to think they have to defend God. So they are out in the world fighting for righteousness and defending the laws of God. But God calls us to Serve him, but primarily by 2 things: 1) Loving God and others and 2) proclaiming the good news.
We seem to have only the first half of the first point down. Loving others only occurs after they turn away from sin. He does not call us to be sinless, but that seems to be more important to many Christians than anything else. And the "good news"? It is usually presented something like this "You are a disgusting sinner, full of sin, and hopeless to ever change." That is hardly "good" news!

The good news really is: "God loves you. I love you. And I am here to serve you." Later we can complete the message and tell them that we love only because God loves us. And if they want to know the kind of love we know, then they need to know God intimately. But, no, we always make the last step first and refuse to have any contact until they come to God first.

The underground Christians are the ones who know that God is infinite and infinitely loving, while being pure and complete. These people further are the ones who realize that if there is an infinitely powerful, infinitely loving God who created all that is, that such a God can only be loved and awed in return. These people dedicate their lives to pursuing a closer and more intimate relationship with this all-powerful, all-loving God and simultaneously pursue a course of serving this God totally with all of their mind, all of their strength, all of their intellect, all of their emotions, and all of their time.

When you have truly encountered such a God, you can only give all back. And, having been loved totally by God, you come to realize that there is never any hope to try to become perfect, but rather to live constantly in that forgiving love.

Then, knowing this constantly renewing forgiving love, you realize that no one is any different from you. Knowing such, you realize you have no position to call them to change. There is no place for demanding perfection from others. All you can do is show them the love that you have seen from God and trust them to respond to that love. If they do not, fine, your call is to love them, not condemn them. If they do, then God can teach them how to move beyond their pain and addictions. (And by "addiction" I mean all those these we all cling to to keep away the pain that is a natural part of this fallen world.)
Last edited by p5cents; May 18,2009 at 5:35am.
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #5  May 27,2009, 2:22pm
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p5, Thanks for your answer. I haven't written on because this area is a real deep struggle for me right now. My pastor keeps repeating the phrase that the only real response for love is love and inviting us to respond to the Lord in worship but I keep getting the scriptures in my head that talk about the image of God in others. I can do just fine worshipping toward God in the seclusion of my home. I am glad some people can go to church and feel they are blessed by worshipping with others without necessarily even knowing the name of the person next to them, but somehow my Bible says something about our love for each other being a measure of our faith.

I am reading a book about believing in an Invisible God. I so appreciated Yancy's honesty in it about his doubts as it invited me to trust, ironic, isn't it? I wonder if churches would have a different impact on people if we invited people's doubts as well as their faith to the table of worship. But to do that, we need to actually talk to each other.
 
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p5cents is offline p5cents Post #6  May 27,2009, 5:49pm
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I can't say I've ever been to a church where I knew no one. But the big church I used to belong to had about 2,000 members and I usually knew only a few of the people around me--except when I sat with the 30s and 40s singles folks. I knew all of them--and a lot of their struggles.

I am sure that a church is not Church if the people have no contact except during the Greet time at the start of worship. Church is to be the place where people can come to rest from the struggles of life and be accepted and encouraged by others.

One time I was on the leadership team of our men's ministry and the pastor who ran that ministry asked what kind of Big Hairy Audacious Goal we should have. (He had just gone to a workshop that applied that idea--which is bantered in business circles--to churches. James Collins "Building Your Company's Vision", 1996.) He wanted something like "share the gospel with every man in our suburb of 50,000" or similar. I said "I want the church to be like a lighthouse in a storm and a calm harbor from that storm. I want the people to have the fragrance of life to those who are seeking God (to be complete, Paul also added that we are to be the stench of death for those who are rejecting God --II Cor. 2: 14-16)." He did not know what to say. He really couldn't get his head around a goal that included people's behaviors and spiritual state rather than a to-do list.

I'm not saying that church has a problem with openness. I was in a wonderful men's bible study for about 10 years, most of the time lead by that same pastor. We all shared very deep concerns. I did notice, however, that the pastor never had any concerns that were at all "concerning". Year's later when I wanted to be the first paid staff person for that men's ministry, I think the openness I had in that group prevented me from being considered for the job. Or maybe it was just because, by then, I was divorced. (Our divorce involved a lot of the staff because I was involved in the men's ministry and my wife ran the children's music and the bell choir.)

But to put things simply, I think that no church is really Church unless they have small groups that meet regularly and both study the Bible and share their needs and concerns. And, from my experience, a church's growth is directly related to the health of their small groups. When I helped start our singles ministy back in 2001 the group shared my vision of ministry. The even came up with the name Oasis to reflect the kind of place we wanted to create. All the leaders, too, were dedicated to small groups. The one I was in was infinitely helpful as my income went from good to zero and I lost my house. The highlight of my week was our Wednesday night gatherings. We all became good friends. (This group was all singles, all but 1 divorced. In time 2 married, but stayed in the group.) My hope is to begin something like that at my new church in San Diego. It will be harder, since this church has only about 100-200 members and few who are single (as is a problem with most churches).
 
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p5cents is offline p5cents Post #7  May 27,2009, 6:02pm
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I can also add that wherever I am in a church I tend to be quite open about my life. I think I would be hypocritical to do otherwise. But that openness can bring me harm, as so many people in the Church live by the world's ideas that you should be quiet and never let others know that you are struggling.

Some, I am sure, condemned me for being so open, but I know that other men were encouraged by sharing in my struggles. Between 994 and 2001 I had cancer, was divorced (did not seek it), and was fired from my professional job. Oh, also a very close friend committed suicide. (He was in the bible study and was hit with divorce the same time I was.) I had men tell me they were encouraged to see my strength through it all.

I did let people know the struggles I had. Little did anyone know how terrible those struggles were. I wish to find a church someday where people can actually admit how much they are struggling with feelings of worth and with understanding what God does and what God will do. In our darkest times it is hardest to trust God. Many pastors have never experienced such times and thus cannot understand what people are going thru. I can say that you can reach a point where it feels that God is not there, or God is dead, or totally uncaring. I only press on knowing that God is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving--even if he seems distant right now (and maybe has for 5 years). People who have not gone through such times think that anyone in such a time is not being a good Christian or is backsliding.

I was greatly encouraged in the middle of my struggles (which continued thru the oh-oh decade) when the dean of a seminary, after hearing my story, said he thought he should take off his shoes. He felt he must be on holy ground. He said that God would not put someone thru all I had gone through if God did not think I was very special. That was the best and most encouragement I got from anyone in decades. That would be the encouragement I would give any other Christian who is struggling with life and wondering where God is.
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #8  May 28,2009, 1:55pm
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I spent 8 years out of church during and after the years of my seperation and divorce. There was a lot of hurt and confusion and responses from church people that pushed me away during that time. But faith in God made it through and about a year and a half ago I started trying to find a church again so I know what it is like to be in churches where I know no one. And I know what it is like to have people walk up and talk to a person on the opposite side of you without even acknowledging you are there. It is the strangest sensation.

I stayed with my present church through the period when no one talked because I see in it the potential of a place where those who hurt can find a place of encouragement. I think it happens for those who are from the streets (at least on some levels) or in the right age group but as time has passed I have seen the walls stay in place that keep a feeling of distance between people in the church and I am not sure how to deal with them.

It is almost like a poem I read as a child about a stray dog. The poem speaks as if from the dog's viewpoint and talks about the cruelty of those who kicked and hurt him. But he ends by saying that crueler still are those who stop and pat him and then walk away. Sometimes a church can give that feeling of hopefulness. What is needed it to find a way to make it a reality.

Just my thoughts.
 
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p5cents is offline p5cents Post #9  May 30,2009, 8:52am
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Sometimes when someone at church asks "How are you?" I say "Do you want the Narthex answer or the truth?"

So often, even at church, people say those words, but don't really ask the question--like patting the stray and walking on.

The good news is that there were people who I could ask if they wanted the truth and I knew they did want the truth and really would listen and care.

Churches (or, really, their leaders) need to become aware of singles. Pastors are almost always married (and rarely previously divorced or widowed) and are totally blind to the single experience. Then, too, they love to talk about how the church is "family oriented". It is a very good thing to encourage and promote the family and to help couples have better marriages and to help them raise their kids.

But the emphasis on families often means they have nothing for singles (with or without kids). And even if the pastors or other leaders are concerned about singles, if the church constantly talks about marriages and families and never speaks to singles, then when a single comes to church, they feel out of place.

I have studied how much singles are served by churches and have found that few churches think about or reach out to singles and most Christians, if they get divorced, generally stop attending church. It is a major need. In fact, I call it the biggest untapped domestic mission field.
 
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rix is offline rix Post #10  June 10,2009, 2:20am
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coeuri wrote :
I started trying to find a church again so I know what it is like to be in churches where I know no one. And I know what it is like to have people walk up and talk to a person on the opposite side of you without even acknowledging you are there. It is the strangest sensation.

It is also the loneliest sensation! It is an intimidating prospect to walk through the doors of a new church as a single, especially as a single male, since you are automatically regarded as a suspect "predator" until you prove otherwise.

I attended a particular church for a period of time, and I found it somewhat ironic when they sang They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Love during one service. And I'm not a particularly extroverted person, but I thought I would push myself that particular Sunday, and join the fellowship in the basement after the service. The basement was crowded with "fellowshipping" people, but not one person acknowledged me. It was the strangest and loneliest sensation. I might as well have been a disembodied spirit.

And yet I read feedback from people in this group who say "you MUST gather with other believers." In the area where I live, there are two mega churches that have nearly four thousand people attend on any given Sunday, not to mention countless other congregations, yet I see no discernable impact or difference upon the community around me. Churches are primarily a club for "gathering with other believers," but its members refuse to reach out to those who are wounded and hurting in the community around them. Churches have basically become a club of cookie-cutter believers of like mind. And they close their doors to "sinners" in need. And I have seen that attitude reflected by some in this group. They expect this to be a group for "Christians only," and they would like to bar the door from the seeker, agnostic, or atheist from entering in. Let alone that they should ask the hard questions, and infect others with disbelief. And some good people, with keen intellects, have left as a result. And as an end result, the group has become more impoverished.
 
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