rix is offline rix Post #1  April 18,2009, 12:56am
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Like many Americans, I finished doing my taxes around the fifteenth of this month. I also noticed, admittedly, that I was not as charitable last year. And again, like many Americans, concerned with the state of the economy, I became more frugal, and less charitable as a result. However, I have also noticed as a result of being less charitable, the government only takes more. Therefore, I have concluded that certain, albeit accountable, charitable organizations would be better stewards with my money than the government, so I have already given more than my total giving for 2008. I have also noticed that "hoarding"tends to have an effect on one's spirit to where they become more "grinchlike". Therefore, the liberating feeling one finds in the spirit of giving is often blessing enough.


However, since the concept of tithing is often associated with the Christian concept of giving. It would be interesting to hear others thoughts on the issue. Why is tithing practiced when the New Testament makes no mention of theobservance? Furthermore, only landowners tithed. And only products of the land were tithed. And, only Levites could receive the tithes. Tithing was a law of Moses, and Christians are not under the law of Moses. And since only landowners tithed, and Jesus was a carpenter by trade, more than likely he himself did not tithe. Therefore; why do Christians practice tithing?


I believe it becomes more problematic, when the concept ot tithing (which only included products of the land) becomes associated with money.
 
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rix is offline rix Post #2  April 18,2009, 1:26am
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(I was afraid of losing my post due to "routine maintenance" at this time, so I split postings. Now, I will continue with "Tithing" part 2).


The practice of associating tithing with money has proved problematic.First of all, it is often used to manipulate people to support an institution with paid "hirelings" to perform the works of ministry, while the lay person's only obligation is to write checks. Therefore, lay people assume that certain works of ministry (such as visitation) are not their obligation. After all, that's why we pay the pastor. The Apostle Paul himself was not a "paid clergyman," but supported his own ministry as a "tentmaker".


CCM artist Steve Camp says in his song "Justice": "Some equate money with holiness, well my friend that is a lie. One man claimed God held him ransom, if he didn't have enough he'd die" [In the song, he is refering to the incident when Oral Roberts locked himself up in his ivory tower claiming "God would take him home, if he didn't receive five million dollars." I wish that race track owner wouldn't have sent him the money (It is apparent Oral didn't care where the money came from). I would like to have seen Oral "callthe bluff." And recently, there is the example of televangelist Rod Parsley, who always has some testimonial of someone receivinga miracle, after they mail him a check]. Granted, these are extreme examples, but equating tithing, and "God's blessing", with money and material gain proves problematic.


The greatorator and Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon once said; "The Old Covenant was a covenant of prosperity, but the New Covenant is one of adversity, where we are made meet (or made ready) for that which is to come." In other words, theOld Covenant was focused on the material, the physical nation of Israel. However, the New Covenant is focused upon thespiritual, and whatever it takes to make us ready for a "kingdom that is not of this world."


Yet, although the New Covenant may not endorsetithing, it does not mean that we are necessarily off the hook. As with the rich young ruler, Jesus may also admonish us to "sell all we have and give it to the poor." That is,he will ask us to get rid of anything that may stand in the way of obtaining his "spiritual kingdom." But, that does not necessarily mean selling all of our worldly goods and moving into a monastery. And some view tithing as "the minimum standard of Christian giving." However, regardless, we are called to do more than simply write a check,weare calledto give of ourselves, and of our gifts and abilities.
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #3  April 18,2009, 5:43am
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Rix, will try this again and if my other post appears, I will delete this. I am glad you brought up this issue since how we choose to use our resources is an issue that affects any relationships we are in as well. I know, for me, returing to churches actively is only about a year old now so I am working out what all this tithing means. It helpsthat I am in a church that has needs right up front because of our choice to build what we have in an old warehouse in a needy area of the city. We also have direct links to a group of poorer churches in Nepal and people who can go there to help and then come and share about the churches there. I help out with things like coffee after church because three are many who come for that coffee who have so little. I also do give to the church but struggle to balance the idea of tithing. Look forward to what others have to say on this.
 
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Traveljoyful is offline Traveljoyful Post #4  April 19,2009, 7:55am
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This is truly interesting to me. I do value and appreciate other's opinions and perceptions on this topic. At the same time, I'll share my opinion. Because I was created by God - I have a core belief that everything I have (earn, etc) is from God. He is my ultimate provider - my Jehovah Jirah. Regardless of Old Testament or New Testament - my belief will not waiver. So putting this belief into reality - here is how I believe and how I practice. God gives me my very breath to breathe - He provides me with my career and my income. The only thing that we will take with us when we die is people and relationships. So money - while it serve a very useful purpose here on earth - is just that money. So - I do believe that 10% should be given back to God - in whatever form one chooses. It just so happens that I belong to a large church that is growing and has a transparency to it - there are no abuses of funds.


But I do agree with rix that there are some churches that badger people to give - this is not something that I approve of. People should give out of their own willingness. God truly does love a cheerful giver. While I am not here to advocate that one should start tithing immediately - I personally will tithe and also will give charitably.


God has proven Himself to me over and over again. I have personal stories where I didn't have enough money to cover certain bills. I remained true to giving my tithe and God - somehow provided me the funds to cover things. I journal so that I won't forget how He has continued to bless me. In March this year alone - I had 4 separate blessings that I know God coordinated. There would be no way else around it!


So, I guess - ultimately - each person must decide what is right for him/her to do. I certainly do not qualify to convince anyone. But speaking from my own personal experience, I have discovered that when I tithe (10%) - God meets and exceeds my needs for my budget. In the past, when I neglected to tithe - I struggled to make ends meet. God is God - and He created me - so I trust Him. He'll provide. He has been faithful. I guess my encouragement to you would be - test Him. See if He won't open the storehouses of heaven and pour you out a blessing that you won't be able to receive it all. God is good. And just remember that He loves you regardless of your decision to tithe or not. He just may not bless you as extensively if you are not tithing.
 
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dore is offline dore Post #5  April 20,2009, 11:09am
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I think Traveljoyful has it right. God will provide and He wants us to give cheerfully.


We shouldn't feel bound by the OT covenant of tithing. We should feel free to give as God has prospered us. As my pastor says, 10% is a good place to start. I am thankful that I grew up tithing so it is not such a hardship for me because I am accustomed to not counting on that money. I have to admire those that have had to learn as adults to give.


When you think about how even a dollar that you give allows someone else to reach people that you will never have the time or approximation to speak to, it is such a small thing in the face of eternity. What price can be placed on a soul?
 
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giladan is offline giladan Post #6  April 20,2009, 5:35pm
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rix, wrote :

Like many Americans, I finished doing my taxes around the fifteenth of this month. I also noticed, admittedly, that I was not as charitable last year. And again, like many Americans, concerned with the state of the economy, I became more frugal, and less charitable as a result. However, I have also noticed as a result of being less charitable, the government only takes more. Therefore, I have concluded that certain, albeit accountable, charitable organizations would be better stewards with my money than the government, so I have already given more than my total giving for 2008. I have also noticed that "hoarding"tends to have an effect on one's spirit to where they become more "grinchlike". Therefore, the liberating feeling one finds in the spirit of giving is often blessing enough.


However, since the concept of tithing is often associated with the Christian concept of giving. It would be interesting to hear others thoughts on the issue. Why is tithing practiced when the New Testament makes no mention of theobservance? Furthermore, only landowners tithed. And only products of the land were tithed. And, only Levites could receive the tithes. Tithing was a law of Moses, and Christians are not under the law of Moses. And since only landowners tithed, and Jesus was a carpenter by trade, more than likely he himself did not tithe. Therefore; why do Christians practice tithing?


I believe it becomes more problematic, when the concept ot tithing (which only included products of the land) becomes associated with money.
All of the comments I have read are the person's opinion and our opinion plus $1.00 migt buy us a cup of coffee. Our opinion matters not at all what does matter is what the Bible says, so let's look at what Jesus had to say about tithing.


Luk 11:42 But woe to you, Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and pass over judgment and the love of God. You ought to have done these, and not to leave the other undone.


These were judgement and the love of God while the other is tithing. You may say that this was before Jesus' sacrifice and the institution of the New Covenant so lets see what the Apostle Paul had to say.


2Co 9:7 Each one, as he purposes in his heart, let him give; not of grief, or of necessity, for God loves a cheerful giver.


We can tell from this that even though tithe litterally means 10% the Christian should not feel compelled to give more than they can afford, nor does it necessarily have to be money. You may give free work to the church, you may contribute food, or time, et. al., but tithing or giving is a NT concept.
 
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ActionSoftGuy is offline ActionSoftGuy Post #7  April 30,2009, 12:43am
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There are of course also verses where Paul instructs them to take up a collection for him or others. Verses about how you shouldn't muzzle the ox. Verses about how he works so he wouldn't be a burden to them, but in reality they owe him their life. This is where we have a biblical basis for giving money for pastoral staff and missionaries.
 
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rix is offline rix Post #8  May 1,2009, 4:22am
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Well...The level of response to this thread is proportionate to it's popularity among religious folk, since the vast majority give far less than ten percent. However, I wanted to give ample time for others to respond, before I weighed in again.


The question was, and still is, is tithing instructed as part of the New Testament? Itwas observed in the Old Testament as part of the sacrificial system, and incorporated into Rabbinic Judaism (as indicated by mention of the passage in Luke). However, is there clear instructionin the New Testamentthat endorses the practice of "tithing"? The only mention of tithing, is in the context of Jesus' rebuke of the Pharisees. Hardly an endorsement! Time and again, he rebuked them for keeping the "traditions of men" and "man made observances," but neglecting the weightier mattersthat concern justice and mercy. And true, we find instances of "giving" in theNewTestament.However, specific instances of "tithing" are not mentioned. And the onlytime it is mentioned, is in the context of Jesus' rebuke.It may seem like I'm trying to tear down sacred cows. But I'm only trying to be faithful to the integrity of text itself.


Testimonies were provided, but subjective criteria does not validate the practice itself. And yes, it is part of the Old Covenant. However, if weconsistently observed the Old Covenant, we would be unable to eat pork or have a blood transfusion. I believe what God rewards is faithfulness, and exercising a "measure of faith" by the act of giving itself. Afterall, I'm sure many of us have experienced the liberating feeling of the act of giving. And also, I'm sure many of us have also experienced the grinch-like hardening of the heart when we act in a selfish manner.


And I do believe it is important to give where you are fed spiritually. And for those who do not currently attend church or some other religious institution, it may be some worthwhile cause or ministry that you believe in. I find it highly ironic that those who preach faith on TV (The "Faith" teachers), actually have the least faith. They are constantly manipulating viewers for money.However, the ministries that do not emphasize "the power of faith,"and may beviewed as "less spiritual" by their spiritually prideful charismatic counterparts, actually operate in the realm of faith on a daily basis. For example, RBC Ministries (most known for "Our Daily Bread" devotional and the "Day of Discovery" program) are constantlymailing outdevotionals, books, and DVD materials, and offers for more resources. And.....They never ask for money!!! They rely completely upon gifts and contributions.That's whatI call operating on faith! Not some crass manipulating "Faith" teacher who claims that God will bless you ten fold for every dollar you send them.


Therefore, when someone like Rod Parsley promises a "miracle" or "blessing" upon giving (which is usually backed up by some testimonial of someone who mailed him a check),I put the principle into practice by mailing a check tosome worthwhile ministry like RBC ministries.
 
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Traveljoyful is offline Traveljoyful Post #9  May 1,2009, 6:25pm
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Rix - as far as your question is concerned - I think there are many interpretations of the Scripture. We are human and thus fallible. But my coming from my own personal opinion of NT doctrine, I do feel that tithing is a NT principle. Even if the principle is stated only 1x - it was important enough to be included in the NT. Jesus was clear when he told the disciples to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. He obviously was speaking toward paying taxes and tithing.


In my prior post, I mentioned that it truly is not up to me to persuade people regarding their personal beliefs in tithing. Ultimately, you need to determine what is right for you. My own personal belief is that - YES - tithing is and should be followed. However, I am not the enforcer of this - your giving is between you and God.


Again in my prior post, I mention that everything we have is ultimately God's. If he took the very air I breathe - all the money is the world means nothing. Personally, I believe that if God can trust us to manage our finances (and tithe - plus give- over and above the 10%), then He will bless us and ultimately trust us with more.


Truly though - you will need to come to your own conclusions. There are way too many evangelists that twist and shout to get at people's money. I'm quite sure that is not what God had in mind when he was speaking about giving. At the same time, God blessed us with the ability to reason. So I would encourage you to research the topic more on your own. Crown Financial Ministries is a great resource on finances. Did you know that there are over 2100 verses in the Bible that reference money and giving? That is an overwhelming number. I'm sure God had a purpose in mind to include so much information on money. Money is not the evil - it truly is the Love of money. Giving it back to God frees us to trust Him and to enjoy His blessings.
 
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rix is offline rix Post #10  May 2,2009, 4:05pm
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Traveljoyful,601444 wrote :

Jesus was clear when he told the disciples to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. He obviously was speaking toward paying taxes and tithing...




Would you render unto God the things of Caesar?


He also asked whose image was upon the medium of exchange!
 
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