coeuri is offline coeuri Post #1  April 4,2009, 10:33am
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The incident in this opening post is long past but the topic of how we define Christianity and its effect on our responses keeps coming up so I am bringing this topic forward again.

Past opening post:

Just an incident that happened last night and the thoughts it brought me:

"I am a Christian, " he tells me as he talks negatively about others in cultural generalities better read as biases. I tell him that that word means a lot of things to a lot of people and that rather than a label, I would like to know what it means to him. To make a long story short, the visit only lasted about 15 minutes as the red flags kept mounting with each new put down of others.

For me Christianity isn't a label to wear but a way to live.

What does Christianity mean to you?
Last edited by coeuri; August 17,2009 at 3:54am.
 
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0nline is offline 0nline Post #2  April 4,2009, 2:07pm
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Isometimes talk negatively about others and sometimes catch myself. For me Christianity is a mark that we will not acheive here on earth. The next time you go to church... look at all those sinners. Yeah, they are allsinners. I havereceived a lot of peace looking at others as my brothers and sisters. Both saved and lost. I have sat at the door of my grocery store and tried to pray for each person walking in and out. It was revealing to me to see so many people in so many places of life. Life itself is some sort of tapistry wooven by God. Do you have an original thought. It probably has been thought of already. During my divorce I had more non-christians helping me. I don't dismiss them because of where they are at. I'm just airing my thoughts here. So don't read into it too much. My relationship with God is priceless. He doesn't need me, I need him. Trying to be as much like Christ as possible, bearing as much fruit and loving till it hurts.


The preacher that slept with my now ex-wife is a christian. All be it a sinner too. IDK about once saved always saved. I could write a book on what it means to me and never fully incapsulate the perfection that Christ is. To be as much like him as possible I guess is my answer to your question.
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #3  April 4,2009, 4:14pm
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Right on, Christianity is about mercy ...... but when I am talking to someone with the idea of possibly getting in a relationship, I need to think about how they talk about others, and please note, these weren't random comments but every sentence almost. I have chosen to live out my Christianity working in poor areas of town. There is a lot of prejudice in our town against the people I have chosen to be around, I need to consider how a person I meet would be able to accept what I believe my calling in faith is.


I am not saying he can't be a Christian and talk negatively sometimes. God knows I will. But it does matter as an expression I would want to spend much time around. Especially since I had already told him I had some red flags about it in an earlier conversation but gave a chance anyway and it didn't change.


Online, my friends have a lot of diversity and I would be the last one to fit among perfect saints, but I just got back into the dating world this week so I need to think through these things. Thanks for your feedback.
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #4  April 5,2009, 4:05am
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I think I let myself down by trying the politically correct short version of what I was feeling. I left it written in such a way that someone had to post defensiveness in their reply.I left my post looking like if somebody says negative things that writes them off to me. I think the reality is in the type of things that were said bringing up red flags to me.


I have experienced first hand some of the hurts caused at the hand of those who call themselves Christians. As well, years ago I alienated more than one person for my judgmental generalities that made others feel I couldn't hear their heart cries. I have been that person but have been blest with having my eyes opened and then having second chances to talk to some of those people so they could let me know how it had felt and have experienced the brokenness and thankfulness of apology that allowed them to have true support from me. I have had the opportunity to see another friend come to Christ when all the judgments were set aside and we could just talk of Christ.


Thankfully, I was shown that each person is an individual and that mercy and grace mattered more than anything BEFORE I reached the place where mercy and grace became desperate needs of my own.


Now after years of healing from some things in the church and my marriage, time that included 8 years where I was allergic to anyone who called themselves Christian because I felt so much hurt in myself, years in which Christians and nonChristians fed my faith in a God who careddespite my aversion, I have returned to an active faith and found that my heart is softer now and that my faith is more real and vital then in all my years of rule book "Christianity".


I have returned to faith because the box that I had stuffed so full of hurts got taken away, broken open by a scripture where heavy duty Bible name leaders refused to just walk away silently but asked for public release. I could no longer just push things down inside and ignore the pain that I had let bind me. And in my own release, I could not go on while others were hurting. I found my home in a church where they seek an intimacy between worship and justice by moving beyond the walls and by struggling openly to find what living as a Christian means in their reponses to others and to the world we live in.


For me, Christ said, "And by this shall they know you are my disciples, that you have love for one another." I am not one who is going to go around preaching faith indescriminately, but I do want my life to live it so would like that to be important in any home I have.


Until now, it was easy to answer certain questions on here and I was probably glib and self-righteous sounding in some of my responses because there were still so many areas I needed to heal that I wasn't yet ready to consider a relationship. This week, that has changed and I find myself longing in a new way. I do believe that part of letting God be God is to honour the person he has created me to be by honestly considering who I am willing to consider as a companion and to, even, honour if in the end, I find that I will choose not to have one.


So I have to ask this question in the heading..... I have to struggle through the variety of definitions that are linked to the "Christian" label as I seek to know how and with who I will spend my life.
 
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rix is offline rix Post #5  April 6,2009, 5:02am
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coeuri, wrote :




"I am a Christian, " he tells me as he talks negatively about others in cultural generalities better read as biases.
It sounds to me like a form of an Americanized "Christianity" that some try to equate with neoconservatism, or as Becky Garrison from the Wittenburg Door called "Coulter Christianity." In other words, basically a right wing form of bigotry far removed from the spirit of the gospels. However, don't get me wrong, I do notwant to make the mistake of going to the opposite extreme, and making Jesus a poster boy for the far left, as certain more "progressive" Christian organizations do.


However, neocons are usually more presumptuous in assuming the "Christian" mantle ("God is on our side"),while wrapping it in the American flag, and displaying bigoted attitudes toward others.
 
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ActionSoftGuy is offline ActionSoftGuy Post #6  April 26,2009, 11:42pm
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I think an important point bring brought up in this thread is that a Christian is a sinner. He is at best a wretched, miserable creature who would, if not for God's grace, plunge himself into the foulest of sin and rebellion against God.


But he is someone who has been redeemed from that former life, so that he does not have to live in it anymore. He still will at times, but doing so is a rather odd thing, where he finds himself doing what he hates.


To me a Christian is, first and foremost, someone who loves Jesus Christ. Loves Him for his undeserved mercy and grace, and the free gift of salvation... for His sacrifice. And secondly loves others, but this love flows out of the love for Christ. Many things flow from this love actually... obeying his commands is one of them (John 15), repentance, etc.
 
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p5cents is offline p5cents Post #7  April 29,2009, 7:15pm
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0nline,563546 wrote :

IDK about once saved always saved. I could write a book on what it means to me and never fully incapsulate the perfection that Christ is.
I think that a lot of Calvin's basic theology is wrong. The "once saved always saved" part is one of those.


First of all, we are not saved in this life. Look at the term as Paul uses it most of the time. He says things like "the hope of salvation". Knowing the lifeguard at the beach does not make you saved. Swimming near the lifeguard does not make you saved. You are only saved when you are about to drown and the lifeguard pulls you out. The Bible talks of a time when all will be judged and Jesus will either say "I know him/her." or "I do not know them.". At that point you will be saved, not a second before. Salvation is not a current state, but a future "hope" (assuredness), as Paul says. Don't get me wrong, we can be sure of our future salvation. I just want to point out the proper chronological emphasis.


Secondly, people who assent to believing in God will not all be saved. Note the story of sheep and goats in Matt. 25, the goats are sent to hell, but they all say "Lord, Lord". They know who Jesus is! That is also the point of James 2 where he says that faith without works is dead (of no power to save). I think that also might be what Paul meant when he mentioned "working out our salvation". Salvation comes from serving God (which is working). We do not assuage God's anger by doing "stuff"--that is what work's salvation is about. God is not changed by our actions. Instead, people who truly love God and choose to be His servants do things (they work for Him).


The way truly is narrow to God and many take the wide (easy) way--which is largely self-centered and empahsises avoiding pain. Unfortunately, I find too many active in their churches who are more concerned about enforcing their own rules and controlling others than yielding to Christ and sharing His love. It is only by showing love that the world will know that we are His disciples.
 
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ActionSoftGuy is offline ActionSoftGuy Post #8  April 29,2009, 10:20pm
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>>First of all, we are not saved in this life. Look at the term as Paul uses it most of the time. He says things like "the hope of salvation".
 
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coeuri is offline coeuri Post #9  May 5,2009, 5:10pm
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Guess what? I actually had someone ask me to define what I meant by Christian so I am glad that I have been considering this question. This is what I answered:


I define Christian as a person who had recognized their need of mercy and grace and has found, through the story of Christ, a God who wanted to extend that to the world. To me, truly knowing that in your life will affect the way you choose to live toward others.
 
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p5cents is offline p5cents Post #10  May 5,2009, 6:05pm
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coeuri,606470 wrote :

Guess what? I actually had someone ask me to define what I meant by Christian so I am glad that I have been considering this question. This is what I answered:


I define Christian as a person who had recognized their need of mercy and grace and has found, through the story of Christ, a God who wanted to extend that to the world. To me, truly knowing that in your life will affect the way you choose to live toward others.
I still plan to reply to ASG, but it will take a while and I've been busy. Actually, right now I should be off to a small group to discuss this past Sunday's sermon on Eph. 5 (armor of God), but I'm feeling really poorly after a big 5 of May potluck at work. Something really got to me!


I recently read a book by Larry Shelton named "Cross and Covenant". I had had 2 classes from him at George Fox, but this really laid out what he was trying to say. When I first heard him, I thought he was a total heretic. Yet, I could not denie his biblical arguments.


In a pea pod, the theology he presents (not new to him, in fact it goes back to the first century) involves the "Good News" and what the New Covenant is all about.


I've often wondered what was so great about the "Good News". As presented it usually is: you are a discusting person, but, if you play your cards right, God has set up a system by which you can get on his good side. That was more depressing than "good"!


But the New Covenant, is a new relationship..a new agreement, between God and humanity. The law is now written on our hearts and not tied to our clothes. But in the Old Covenant, any new contract required one party to provide a sacrifice. The sacrifice was not to compensate for wrong-doing (harm done by one party to the other), but was to confirm that the parties were serious about their agreement.


That concept of Sacrifice is essential. Note that in the OT sacraficial system, the sacrifice, unlike Pagan sacrafices, was NOT a way to appease God. Rather it was a way to confirm the covenant. In the process of offering a sacrifice, the worshiper identified with the animal and, thus, metaphorically, gave their own life in the process of sacrificing an animal. The sacrifice was a gift of one's own life to confirm their dedication to God. Generally, it was not a payment for sins. Note, too, that the only time when the people's sins were taken away, it was with the Scapegoat, who was not killed .


So then, what was the sacrifice that Jesus was a part of? Who presented the sacrifice to whom? Here is the thing that at first seems heretical. God sacrificed Jesus (himself) as an offering to humanity ! Thru the death and, especially, the resurrection of Christ, we identify with him (as the Hebrews idenitified with their sacrifices) and die with him--a symbolic death that shows our committment to God. That sacrifice was also God's way to confirm the new contract with humanity.


God did indeed love humanity so much that he presented his only son as a sacrifice to us . What kind of God would do that? No God like any other in any other religion!


Jesus' death did not appease God, like some kind of pagan God who needs to have his temper calmed. No, it was a conscious gift from God to us to show how much He loves us.


When God is willing to give himself as a gift to us, how can we respond any way but in love and dedicated service?


Part of my response to ASG is that without the dedicated service, any statement of love is meaningless. Such love (stated, but with no action) is vaporous and without meaning. If we do not respond to the love of God with our own love, we do not share in Christ's death and thus do not share in the covenant and do not share in the forgiveness linked to the resurrection.


So, I would say that a Christian is one who sees the love of God, through Christ, realizes how amazing it is, and responds appropriately. This is essentially what you said, coeuri, but with a minor change reflecting this new/old idea.
 
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