godlessinseattle is offline godlessinseattle Post #1  December 22,2008, 1:32pm
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If you, like me, find it ironic that on a Christian sub forum there is a fear to engage in theological discusion, that is "God talk" then please use this thread as an opportunity to engage in "God talk".


Feel free to talk about the science of reading the Bible and its implication for Christian theology. Let's talk about ideas like "original sin". the "virgin birth", the Sonship of Jesus, the theology of heaven and hell, "ownership issues and Christianity", "emergent Christianity" the liberal vs conservative Christian. The hot button issues like abortion, same sex marriage, re marriage, sex in all its many incarnations.


From time to time I will post a theological idea here and see where it goes. I invite any other Christian who is not afraid or ashamed to speak about God and not fearful that harm is done to Jesus whenwe who follow him disagree on various teachings.


Have at it....


Make with the "God Talk" theology.
 
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godlessinseattle is offline godlessinseattle Post #2  December 22,2008, 2:22pm
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I cribbed this from the Christian Agnostic blog site written by someone who calls herself a recovering Baptist...


On another front - Bob Jones University - the rabidly conservative Christian college in Greenville, SC has apologized for its racist policies that forbade interracial dating and admitting black students. They didn't admit black students until 1971.

The apology reads, in part:

"For almost two centuries American Christianity, including BJU in its early stages, was characterized by the segregationist ethos of American culture. Consequently, for far too long, we allowed institutional policies regarding race to be shaped more directly by that ethos than by the principles and precepts of the Scriptures. We conformed to the culture rather than provide a clear Christian counterpoint to it. In so doing, we failed to accurately represent the Lord and to fulfill the commandment to love others as ourselves. For these failures we are profoundly sorry."




My suggestion to BJU is keep that statement for a template when they apologize to gay and lesbian people in another 50 years. Here's a taste:

"Like any human institution, we have failures as well. For almost two centuries American Christianity, including BJU in its early stages, was characterized by the HOMOPHOBIC ethos of American culture. Consequently, for far too long, we allowed institutional policies regarding SEXUAL ORIENTATION to be shaped more directly by that ethos than by the principles and precepts of the Scriptures. We conformed to the culture rather than provide a clear Christian counterpoint to it. In so doing, we failed to accurately represent the Lord and to fulfill the commandment to love others as ourselves. For these failures we are profoundly sorry."




Ah, one day we'll be reading that statement from BJU - but not anytime soon. If it took them this long to repent of racism, homophobia will probably take even longer.

But, there is always hope.
 
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Village_Idiot is offline Village_Idiot Post #3  December 22,2008, 4:05pm
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Dear GIS, I've always loved a good theological debate.I'm not sure that BJU will ever make that statement. There is a large distinction between same-sex attraction and same-sex sexual activity. I think there are two basic questions that should be answered first: In God's plan (if there is one), what does it mean to be female, to be male? And secondly, would God in His goodness give/allow humans urgings/attractions that He does not want them to act on?


Your thoughts?
 
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Kristian79 is offline Kristian79 Post #4  December 22,2008, 8:24pm
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godlessinseattle, wrote :

From time to time I will post a theological idea here and see where it goes. I invite any other Christian who is not afraid or ashamed to speak about God and not fearful that harm is done to Jesus whenwe who follow him disagree on various teachings.


Have at it....


Make with the "God Talk" theology.
Godless -- It's not that I'm afraid or ashamed to talk theology. It's just that it's not my purpose in coming to a Christian Singles group. I hope you don't think the Not another theology discussion was a negative slap at you...that wasn't my implication at all.


Merry Christmas!
 
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waltercl is offline waltercl Post #5  December 22,2008, 9:53pm
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I think the reason some would get burnt out on this type of discussion is because it seems that when godless enters the discussion it always comes around to the issue of homosexuality. I understand that because of her brother this may be an important issue in her life, but for most of us it just isn't. It's an issue that most of us have settled. We believe the Bible is clear and no amount of posting to the contrary is going to change that.


I discovered for myself that the conversation just ends up going into a never-ending circular pattern. After so much of that you just have to agree to disagree and move on.
 
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godlessinseattle is offline godlessinseattle Post #6  December 23,2008, 10:04am
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Village_Idiot,390347 wrote :

Dear GIS, I've always loved a good theological debate.I'm not sure that BJU will ever make that statement. There is a large distinction between same-sex attraction and same-sex sexual activity. I think there are two basic questions that should be answered first: In God's plan (if there is one), what does it mean to be female, to be male? And secondly, would God in His goodness give/allow humans urgings/attractions that He does not want them to act on?


Your thoughts?
When I think of God and think also of the amazing diversity and size and awesome age of the Universe He created, I for one cannot imagine that such a Being would be reduced to the pious concerns of mere humans. We humans, especially men, have and still are very fearful of sex. It is something that must be controlled, regulated, governed, limited to certain times and only with church-licensed partners of the right gender and at one time even the right race!


I think God is the author of sex and it is God who made sex something much more fun and exciting than mere making babies. It wouldn't have taken a design genius to create beings like ourselves who only did it when in heat to make a baby--say once a year or maybe every two or three years. But no God didn't do this. He created us to feel sexual urges from a very early age. Most of us single or married have sex for pleasure not to make babies. Few single or married women, today, do not practice one form or another of birth control means, including not limiting sex to only intercourse.


I think where many Christians go wrong is in failing to distinguish the difference between presriptive and desriptive language in Scripture. I think the other area in which many Chrisitans miss the mark is in their determined desire to restrict God's revelation to one book that in addition to revealing God also reveals the cultural and historical norms of an ancient, now very dead society.


Based on Scripture, experience, reason I am convinced that God is not a bedroom snooping god intent upon finding us doing it the wrong way so He can punish us forever. I am sure that from God's perspective there is no one right way--excluding of course r*pe or force or power over relationships--to express our sexual nature.


These are God given feelings and urges and we honor God when we explore them with consenting adult partners.


What if I am wrong? What if the more pious defenders of sexual purity are right and that God really does care how we do it?


Have faith (trust) in the grace of God.
 
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godlessinseattle is offline godlessinseattle Post #7  December 23,2008, 10:07am
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Kristian79,390738 wrote :

godlessinseattle, wrote :


From time to time I will post a theological idea here and see where it goes. I invite any other Christian who is not afraid or ashamed to speak about God and not fearful that harm is done to Jesus whenwe who follow him disagree on various teachings.


Have at it....


Make with the "God Talk" theology.


Godless -- It's not that I'm afraid or ashamed to talk theology. It's just that it's not my purpose in coming to a Christian Singles group. I hope you don't think the Not another theology discussion was a negative slap at you...that wasn't my implication at all.


Merry Christmas!
I probably did see it as a slap at me who obviously enjoys a good theological mixup. But this is my bad and not any reflection on you.


I still have much to learn in life and one of the lessons I need to work on is not thinking that my likes and interests are universally loved by all.


Thanks for taking the time and showing concern for my feelings.


Merry Christmas to you and yours.
 
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godlessinseattle is offline godlessinseattle Post #8  December 23,2008, 1:23pm
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Whenever we meet with such useless, nay impossible, incidents and precepts as these, we must discard a literal interpretation and consider of what moral interpretation they are capable of what moral interpretation they are capable, with what higher and mysterious meaning they are fraught, what deeper truths they were intended symbolically and in allegory to shadow forth. The divine wisdom has of set purpose contrived these little traps and stumbling blocks in order to cry halt to our slavish historical understanding of the text, by inserting in its midst sundry things that are impossible and unsuitable. The Holy Spirit so waylays us in order that we may be driven by passages which, taken in the prima facie sense cannot be true or useful, to search for the ulterior truth, and seek in the Scriptures which we believe to be inspired by God a meaning worthy of him.


Who will be found idiot enough to believe that God planted trees in Paradise like any husbandman; that he set up in it visible and palpable tree-trunks, labelled the one Tree of Life� and the other Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil both bearing real fruit that might be masticated with corporeal teeth; that he went and walked about that garden; that Adam hid under a tree; that Cain fled from the face of God?


How can it be literally true, how an historical fact, that from a single mountain top with fleshy eyes all the realms of Persia, of Scythia, and of India could be seen adjacent and at once.


Such is the text of Luke 10:4, in which Jesus when he sent forth the Twelve Apostles bade them Salute no man on the way. None but silly people believe that our Saviour delivered such a precept to the Apostles.


And how, particularly in a land where winter bristles with icicles and is bitter with frosts, could anyone be asked to do with only two tunics and no shoes?


And then that other command that a man who is smitten on the right cheek shall also turn the left to the smiter, ho can it be true, seeing that anyone who smites another with his right hand must necessarily smite his left cheek and not his right?


And another of the things to be classed among the impossible is the prescription found in the Gospel, that if thy right eye offend thee it shall be plucked out. For even if we take this to apply to our bodily eyes, how is it to be considered consistent, whereas we use both eyes to see, to saddle one eye only with the guilt of the stumbling block, and why the right eye rather than the left?


Are these the derisive words of one of the latter day atheists who love to heap scorn on our futile attempts to read the Bible literally? No.


These are all quotes from Origen one of the so called early Church Fathers writing in the latter decades of the second century.
 
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Village_Idiot is offline Village_Idiot Post #9  December 23,2008, 5:17pm
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Dear GIS, You obviously have thought a lot about these things. However, I do disagree with you on several issues. To me, one of the greatest mysteries is how transcendent and how immanent are God is - That the Creator of the universe, whose vastness we now realize we can't even measure (due to the limitations of the speed of light), is still interested in our daily lives. That He sent His Son to become one like us, to show us the Father's love, and to show us how to live in that love. If you get a chance, I highly recommend "Jesus of Nazareth" by Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI). It's a very personal, yet highly scriptural portrait of Jesus.


You wrote, "These are God given feelings and urges and we honor God when we explore them with consenting adult partners." I don't agree, as we all have many urges/feelings thatwill not bring uslife. Indeed, one of the great insights in Luke's gospel is the story of the two sons (aka, the prodigal son): One son seeks "freedom" and "self-fulfillment" only to find its emptiness and desolation. The other son is so caught up in "shoulds" that he can not see the freedom that is his all along. The father loves both, and at least the younger realizes the freedom of living in his father's love.


Further, the tribal society from which the Old Testament sprung is not a "very dead society." There are many parts of the world still bound to a tribal, usually very paternalistic, society. While most of us (who are not fundamentalistic Islamists)do not want to go back to that, we do need to reverence what was good about the tribal roots of our heritage.


I am still curious if you have any thoughts about why we were created male and female.


Hope this is your (and everyone at eH's) happiest Christmas yet.
 
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waltercl is offline waltercl Post #10  December 23,2008, 11:10pm
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Those are some good points Village. Also I think it's a mistake to think every urge we have is from God. Some urges are from our fleshly nature, and some urges are perversions. The general urge to have sex is natural and from God, but the urge to have sex with that hot 20 year old down the street is probably not God.


There is a lot in the New Testament about dealing with our fleshly and sensual desires. We are instructed to put these to death and submit ourselves to God. As we submit to God in times of temptation rather than giving in we are then changed, and the net result is we have better self-discipline and control.


Yes God invented sex, but he also created it for the marriage relationship. It's not that God wants to keep people from having pleasure, but he created sex in such a way that if it was conducted according to his will then it would be constructive, but if is conducted outside his will then it is destructive. Just because some people say they're having sex outside of marriage all the time with no consequences doesn't mean the consequences aren't there. It's just means they've yet to recognize them.


Do I believe God has my best interets in mind when he sets down guidelines and boundaries in His Word? Absolutely. But I've also learned through experience that he knows what he is talking about.
 
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