Spinoff from "Smart Women" thread: Men & the courts/abusive women/false DV claims/etc.

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Rainmaker54 Post #221 February 28,2010, 7:05am

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chawks64 wrote :

I don't believe I saw anywhere in this thread that anyone thought men wanted "superior rights". I would assume (rightly or wrongly) that when people spoke of "men's rights", they were discussing getting rid of inequalities in the system.

This is exactly why it's difficult to participate in this discussion. You very obviously have your view and it's so blatently hostile that we know nothing we post is being serioously considered. It's not a discussion; it's a lecture, and an angry one at that.

Okay. So when a woman posts her opinion(s) it's a "discussion"; when I post my opinion(s) it's a "lecture"?

And, apparently, there are people on this thread who do view the notion of men's rights as somehow being an affront to "equality". Otherwise, why would the response to the notion of men's rights (as raised by others, not me) entail some members immediately posting articles to support an argument that there is so much violence against women, that we really do need extra protections for just women, or why a member feels compelled to point to crazies in the men's right movement who are "disgusting"?

Do you really feel these posts come from people who think that the so-called men's right movement is about "equality", or are these people afraid the system is going to move back to where it was 50 years ago?

I'm just basing my responses upon what I see written in the posts. I don't know anyone here personally, just what is written. I am sorry, if my written statements come off as being "angry" or "hostile".

littlebluemonkeymind Post #222 February 28,2010, 10:25am

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I didn't just post my opinion. I posted links to statistics. Statistics that show that women are still, by far, the victims of domestic violence more than the perpetrators.

Does that mean the opposite does not occur? Certainly not. Does that mean that false allegations or violence toward men (with no provocation) should be tolerated? Certainly not.

However, considering that only 10-15 percent of contested divorces include charges of domestic violence (you'll have to dig though the links...I really don't have the time or interest to go back and track down which one this came from) and considering that although 40 percent of domestic violence fatalities were men, more than half of those were preceded by domestic violence on the man's part, what you're setting up here is a straw man argument - that this is an overwhelming incidence when it is not. It may be your overwhelming incidence because of what you do, but it is not, by any means, supported by statistical fact as an epidemic.

As has been pointed out countless times in this thread, VAWA does not specifically protect women. It, in large part, protects all domestic partners. I would, however, think that there's an argument to be made that since, from all the real evidence I've found, woman are still far more likely to be subjected to domestic violence, we have not yet reached anything approaching equality on that front, much less a superceding inequity.

And since we're talking about it and you have repeatedly mentioned bias, I feel compelled to point out that, if you are indeed a divorce attorney and if your practice does indeed specialize in men who are accused of domestic violence, falsely or otherwise, you cannot set yourself up as a person presenting this information without bias. You come here with an obvious agenda. You are getting pushback that your agenda is dubious and your arguments supporting it are weak. If you had begun the discussion as an actual discussion and some representative sampling of evidence instead of a not-so-hidden agenda, you might have actually entertained some interesting feedback and perhaps added some enlightenment. Instead, despite the fact that you might actually have something interesting to say on the topic, most of us are simply not interested in continuing to engage you on it due to your obvious bias.

As bigfincat pointed out, and I agree, if people would simply do the right thing, in all circumstances and not only when it is in their favor, these kinds of things would not occur. Am I glad there are attorneys who specialize in addressing issues of false allegations against men? Yes. Do I think it is epidemic that law has swung too far as to be unfairly oppressive to men? No.

And no, I'm not afraid of things going back to the way they were 50 years ago. That is the pipe dream of delusional thinkers with both a disconnect from reality and a false sense of entitlement.

Last edited by littlebluemonkeymind; February 28,2010 at 12:08pm.

chawks64 Post #223 February 28,2010, 11:07am

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Rainmaker54 wrote :

(Note:
I said I was done.
Feel free to argue with me in my abscence, but don't expect a reply.)

littlebluemonkeymind Post #224 February 28,2010, 11:21am

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chawks64 wrote :

(Note:
I said I was done.
Feel free to argue with me in my abscence, but don't expect a reply.)

Me too. Though we might peep in from time to time to see if he's talking to himself.

legend29 Post #225 February 28,2010, 12:28pm

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Rainmaker54 wrote :

Hi Rainmaker...

I have read this entire thread and see both sides making great points.

I am sure you may never concede that maybe there is some truth in seeing things the way LBMM and others have explained the data... and possibly recognizing that there might be some bias with your stats because of the population you serve (I say this because you used data from your own observations as an attorney in conjuction with other data).

Therefore, I am not posting to get you to draw down the gauntlet and raise a white flag..by any means.

But, I am curious...this is a dating site...ergo...this board is here to help folks maneuver in the online and offline dating world, so I am wondering: If, and how your experiences may or may not effect your opinion of women, in general?

I apologize for the personal question, but I am thinking that since this thread has been akin to beating a dead horse, maybe another tact should be attempted.

Trust me, I am not being facetious, and I am really trying to bring it down a notch on this thread and have a "discussion". I dated a man for two years that had your opinions. He went through a very acrimonious divorce...his wife accused him of abuse...he lost joint-custody of his children...when it was proven later that his ex had lied, the courts did amend the order to give him court-appointed, supervised visitation until the dust settled...the ex kept sole custody. Needless to say he was a very angry, man. His anger eventually spilled over and poisoned our relationship, and I had to leave him.

I understand that being a divorce lawyer in your specific area of abuse and men is your occupation, but do you think your job may sometimes taint how you feel about women? Are you able to separate what you do for a living and your personal life?

Just curious....

BTW: You have every right to tell me none of this is my business and I will truly understand...but I am really trying to understand the psyche of men that have been through what you speak of, and men that try to help them, because you are not the first male that espoused these views and I am sure you will not be the last. We have had several men in the past that had the same views as you, and I have always wondered how they maneuver around women in the dating world, without totally offending women.

Last edited by legend29; February 28,2010 at 12:32pm.

jcw001 Post #226 March 5,2010, 2:11pm

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One of the biggest issues with "facts" are the assumptions that underlie them.

It is well known that men do not report domestic violence for a host of reasons. I would think that has a large impact on the available data. If there was complete disclosure of all those that are abused (victims of domestic violence) the data would perhaps be more meaningful. It is, however, not the case. I hope we would agree on that.

It is a shame to see the degradation that has occurred. That usually happens when someone gets too frustrated to act in a constructive fashion.

I for one will fight tooth and nail for fathers and men that are wronged by the courts and by their (ex)spouses. The court system is based on a day and age where traditional roles largely no longer apply.

It is time for change. It will happen; just as change has and is happening where inequality exists.

Sure, there will be resistance. There always is from the "privileged" and those that are "too afraid to challenge the establishment(s)."

So be it, the progressives will lead the way. They always do.

Thank God for Rosa Parks.

Thank God for people that are willing to stand up for men. They are the ones who are standing up for the well being of children.

If you want to rely on data, do the research on the importance of the biological Father being in the lives of children - especially in girls.

Rely on good judgment to draw conclusions you can believe in based on what you find.

Last edited by jcw001; March 5,2010 at 2:22pm.

jcw001 Post #227 March 5,2010, 2:20pm

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legend29 wrote :

I have always wondered how they maneuver around women in the dating world, without totally offending women.

When it comes to the well being of children, I have to ask which is more important??? Frankly, if women cannot understand that I want to create change that is in the best developmental interest of children, she is not a partner for me.

When you come down to it, how about the spouses of major change leaders? Change takes passion. Some cannot take the passion. Some cannot take the change. It isn't for them and apparently it isn't for you. I am glad that you left the situation. You did both yourself and that man and his kids a favor.

Through any significant change in history (revolution), I hope we all would agree that pioneers are normally not accepted very well regardless of whatever tact they take.

Sorry, but to me your post is asking someone to back away from doing what is right... regardless of the nobility of goal at hand, and that is a shame.

All MLK did was talk - and make a call for peaceful change - and it brought him death. It also brought change and that is what matters.

Last edited by jcw001; March 5,2010 at 2:29pm.

chawks64 Post #228 March 5,2010, 4:13pm

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jcw001 wrote :

It is well known that men do not report domestic violence for a host of reasons. I would think that has a large impact on the available data. If there was complete disclosure of all those that are abused (victims of domestic violence) the data would perhaps be more meaningful. It is, however, not the case. I hope we would agree on that.

Abuse against women is also under-reported. Abuse of any kind is humiliating to the abused, and so it continues because the abused doesn't want to admit it occurs. I would agree it is probably more socially acceptable for a woman to report spousal abuse, but it still goes unreported very frequently, regardless of gender.

jcw001 wrote :

I for one will fight tooth and nail for fathers and men that are wronged by the courts and by their (ex)spouses. The court system is based on a day and age where traditional roles largely no longer apply.

It is time for change. It will happen; just as change has and is happening where inequality exists.

Sure, there will be resistance. There always is from the "privileged" and those that are "too afraid to challenge the establishment(s)."

Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail for equal rights for everyone? Why just fathers? Why not the abused, the poor, the marginalized, the oppressed and all of the others that are pushed aside by the courts? Why just fathers?

And I sincerely hope you are not saying women in general are "privileged". My paycheck says otherwise.

jcw001 wrote :

Thank God for people that are willing to stand up for men. They are the ones who are standing up for the well being of children.

Standing up for men does not equate with standing up for the well being of children. Standing up for the better parenting, regardless of gender, equates with standing up for the well being of children. Once you have a child, it's not about you anymore. Your needs are secondary to the child's, and their need is for both parents, with primary custody by the better parent, whether that be the mom or the dad.

jcw001 wrote :

If you want to rely on data, do the research on the importance of the biological Father being in the lives of children - especially in girls.

And their mothers as well. Children thrive with both healthy parents in their lives, as well as the extended family.

jcw001 wrote :

Again, it shouldn't be a gender issue. What is in the best interest of the children has nothing to do with what is on the best interest of the parent, male or female. Good parenting is good parenting, and it makes no difference whether that parent wears tighty whities or Victoria's Secret.

Last edited by chawks64; March 5,2010 at 4:14pm. Reason: Sorry, I have trouble keeping my mouth shut sometimes...

Rainmaker54 Post #229 March 5,2010, 10:00pm

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Chawks, first, I would like to welcome you back from retirement. I had anticipated responding to other posts, but here we are again.

Second, have you read NearDC's submission to this thread entitled: "Patriarchy Reasserted" by Molly Dragiewicz? It's rather interesting. According to Dragiewicz, men not only want superior rights, they want the right to rape women. And furthermore, according to Dragiewicz, anyone who opposes the inequities in the VAWA, subscribes to the notion of a "rape culture". I will be responding to this article in detail.

chawks64 wrote :

Abuse against women is also under-reported.

With the threshold bar for corroborating evidence at floor level in dv cases, I would submit that any under-reporting by women at this point, is probably outweighed by false reporting of abuse by a margin of at least 4:1.

chawks64 wrote :

I am, and I am glad to have you as a supporter.

chawks64 wrote :

Standing up for the better parenting, regardless of gender, equates with standing up for the well being of children. Once you have a child, it's not about you anymore. Your needs are secondary to the child's, and their need is for both parents, with primary custody by the better parent, whether that be the mom or the dad.

Agreed, but if you run for office on this platform you will be defeated by a candidate who supports the presumption of a mother's fitness, and a father's unfitness. There is a reason for this, but it's ugly.

chawks64 wrote :

Again, it shouldn't be a gender issue. What is in the best interest of the children has nothing to do with what is on the best interest of the parent, male or female.

Agreed, but unfortunately, all too often the decision rests upon what is in the "best interests of the system." Despite rhetoric and flag waving and pink and blue balloons, in reality the notion of "best interests of the children", lags far behind. And that's why it costs over $100,000 for a full trial in order to arrive at a decision that actually places the "best interests of the children" first and foremost. Without such a trial, it's guesswork.

Last edited by Rainmaker54; March 6,2010 at 8:39pm.

legend29 Post #230 March 7,2010, 11:39am

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jcw001 wrote :

When it comes to the well being of children, I have to ask which is more important??? Frankly, if women cannot understand that I want to create change that is in the best developmental interest of children, she is not a partner for me.

When you come down to it, how about the spouses of major change leaders? Change takes passion. Some cannot take the passion. Some cannot take the change. It isn't for them and apparently it isn't for you. I am glad that you left the situation. You did both yourself and that man and his kids a favor.

Through any significant change in history (revolution), I hope we all would agree that pioneers are normally not accepted very well regardless of whatever tact they take.

Sorry, but to me your post is asking someone to back away from doing what is right... regardless of the nobility of goal at hand, and that is a shame.

All MLK did was talk - and make a call for peaceful change - and it brought him death. It also brought change and that is what matters.

Uh...er...I think you should reread my post. I was attempting to understand Rainmaker and his anger..and was curious as to how his anger effected how he views women.

In my situation, the ex-SO became angrier and angrier when he lost joint custody of his kids, (even after the ex was proven in court to have lied about the abuse) until he became really depressed and began to verbally attack me as a woman (he called me the "B"-word twice...this from a man who never swore and was always highly respectful of me). In essence I became "the enemy" and he could not allow his anger at his ex-wife to see me as the understanding, empathetic, loving, caring, patient woman that I had been to him for those past two years. Though I was patient because I knew he was in pain, I eventually had to leave the relationship because al he seemed to want to do was argue and he had begun to be physical (pushing/shoving me).

I understood his pain and tried to be there for him because I went through the same situation when I asked for a divorce from my ex-husband. He kept my kids away from me and was not punished by the family court system for not allowing me to see my children. He was angry that I initiated the divorce and made me look like a horrible mother because I wanted the divorce and he felt that I was to uprooting my children from a "happy", comfortable, middle-class environment to live as a single divorced mother. It took me two years to get him to see past his anger and agree to joint custody...with the children living with me during the week and with him every weekend, every holiday, and all summer.

I asked Rainmaker the question about how he views women and if he felt his anger inhibited his ability to have healthy relationships with women because my experience caused me emotional distress and great pain, and it took years for me to get over the anger and learn to trust men again.

BTW: Rainmaker PM'd me. We had a great discussion about gender, divorce, abuse, etc... and perceptions and attitudes in regards to gender and anger due to custody disputes. He understood my post and thanked me for trying to bring the "discussion down and notch" and trying to understand men like him. He is not a 'bad' guy as may be perceived by his comments in this thread...just a man trying to make sense of the rights of men and the judicial system in reagrds to custody and false allegations of abuse.

In addition, the civil rights movement in the 60's was brought on by the death of 14y/o Emmett Till. His death was the catalyst that motivated African-Americans and Rosa Parks to fight discrimination in America against black folks. Their fight was for the right to be able to be seen as human-beings, with the basic rights to breathe the same air as all citizens on American soil..and economic equality...something viewed as a privilege before th civil rights movement. Filial/maternal and custody rights are unfortuantely viewed as a privilege as well, and not an automatic right as a human-being in the American family court system. These laws were put into place to protect children with the assumption (however erroneous) that children belong with their mother.. These laws are subjective at best, and in my experience depended on who had the best lawyer and could make the most outrageous accusations. But I think the comparison to Rosa Parks and MLK is comparing apples to oranges when you know the history of slavery and the huge diaspora African-Americans experienced (and still experience) for hundreds of years in this country. As a person of color, if I walked around with a chip on my shoulder it would hurt me more than anyone else...it is much easier for me to be a happy person than a morose person...just not my style to be a 'gloom and doom' person.

With that said, I also cannot continue to have anger at men based on my experience during my divorce. I lost my children for two long years and had it not been for my patience and diligence I don't know what would have happened. All I know is, the anger I felt nearly destroyed me....and I can't imagine anyone losing the right to see ther children, especially if falsely accused of abuse and/or inadequate parenting. Therefore, I am always curious as to how men, with this much anger, maneuver dating... and if they are able to have healthy relationships with women.

Last edited by legend29; March 7,2010 at 11:45am.

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