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THX11386 wrote :
Quantum Physics is the search for God.

It is interesting to me that science can make this leap. Hooray for the breakthough of those who have aprior knowledge and happen to be in the Earthy field of science.
I personally think this is part of the marketing of science to get more funding. They do it with Hubble all the time...they'll say something like "Hubble brings us one step closer to answering the questions man has wanted to answer since the dawn of time!"

(I want science that merits PR statements like "Blah brings up one step closer to eliminating disease and famine on Earth and helping insure mankind can thrive for thousands of generations to come.")

Kudos to Texas for spending $3 billion to try and cure cancer. Is that so hard Obama? Can you commit the United States to cure cancer in ten years a la Kennedy moonshot?
- October 2nd, 2009, 08:13 pm
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Deleted (duplicate post, got caught in"awaiting moderator" limbo)!

Last edited by ming_on_mongo; October 4th, 2009 at 07:55 pm.
- October 2nd, 2009, 08:53 pm
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I think you're being very 'fast and loose' with language and that can often make for a rocky discussion because it becomes more about accusation and supposition than facts.

No one is a science worshiper. Those terms are antithetical.

How science works isn't my opinion nor is it my opinion that there are realms undectable by science. Just because one can conceive there are such realms doesn't make them real any more than science's own mathematical claim of 9 dimensions.

Until something is true then the presumption is it's false. You have evidence?, well that evidence is in no other dimension than this observable one. What "is" is what's observable. A dream I have is a real dream but it's not part of reality (which is testable by anyone...gravity works the same all over).

Otherwise, as is the very case of metaphysics, anything one can speculate is possible until proven false. Can't prove and negative so it can't merit discussion. Spiritual realm? Ok, why not just say there are 50 different spiritual realms? Why not a Spiritual-Prime realm where everything I dream is truly real until I awake? I absolutely can't prove it doesn't exist and since my dreams sure seem real that's real evidence.

Science again and again demonstrates that how humans imagine nature to operate just ain't so. It's *exactly* why the scientific method was invented...to establish what's real despite what was imagine (and want) to be real.

"I still don't see where you come up with the enormous assumption that "everything is possible, even if it's a very small probability." From some obscure quantum theory?"

Well probability and possibility are synonyms so it's not much of an assumption. I even added the word 'technically' when I spoke of the possibility of throwing a baseball through a lead wall (which is one of the archtypical examples given in a Quantum Mechanics 101 class).

Then you say it's some obscure theory. Well, it's hardly obscure...it's Heisenberg Uncertainty which is as obscure to Quantum as e=mc2 is to relativity.

So it's not only obscure but it's not my enormous presumption.

If you want to have discussion that's grounded in the nouns and verbs of reality and not the adjectives of accusation well that would be fine.

But I started this thread to discuss the simple idea that what people call god is just the statistical nature of reality manifesting itself as events that happen one way, or another, or another.
Well it's not exactly a definition of terms like what I was asking for, but it answers with enough clear statements to give some grounds for reasonable discussion, so I'll continue to play the game for a little while.

I think you're being very 'fast and loose' with language and that can often make for a rocky discussion ...

Obviously I need to define my terms as well. I was hoping you would go first and define yours since you are the OP and ought to be guiding the discussion, but since instead of defining your terms you accuse me of being 'fast and loose' I'll go ahead and set the example of what I'm looking for from you:

Worshiper: A person who is devoted to someone or something, giving it honor and respect above all else. (eg, a 'Worshiper of Science' would be a person who is devoted to Science above all things, to the point of automatically disregarding even the possibility of anything beyond it.)

Spiritual: Anything not of the natural physical universe, the nature of which is outside the realm of science because it is outside the realm of the physical universe. However, the spiritual does in some way intersect with the physical world, and its effects can be detected (in my opinion, obviously. I don't expect others to accept the idea, I'm just defining my own terminology.)

God: My view of God is of a Personal Being (as opposed to an impersonal force) who is Spiritual in nature (see previous definition,) who designed and formed the entire physical universe, intentionally and with a purpose, and who continues to be actively involved in its progress. The God of my understanding possesses intelligence, power, and the emotional and mental characteristics of a discreet individual.
Obviously there are a great number of people who don't share that definition of god, and that seems to be the point of this topic, am I right? You perhaps are defining 'god' as nothing more than a personification of natural physical events that we do not understand (ie, luck?) That is the kind of thing I want you to clarify by defining your terms, instead of forcing me to guess what you're trying to say.


Now, back to the topic of the moment - first I want to ask you to moderate your tone a little. Perhaps you didn't mean it this way, but you came across a bit 'elitist', even arrogant, in your flippant mention of "not so obscure" and "Quantum Physics 101."
I'm not an ignorant child, and I'll thank you for not treating me like one.

I'm not unaware of Heisenberg Uncertainty, so it will not work as a smoke screen that you can just throw out there without definition or explanation to confuse things.
Heisenberg Uncertainty: certain pairs of physical properties, like position and momentum, cannot both be known to arbitrary precision. That is, the more precisely one property is known, the less precisely the other can be known.

To say that some things "cannot be known to arbitrary precision" is hardly the same as to say "all things have a possibility of occuring." As a matter of fact, there is one part of the Heisenberg principle that says exactly the opposite of that:
A mathematical statement of the principle is that every quantum state has the property that the root mean square (RMS) deviation of the position from its mean (the standard deviation of the X-distribution):
times the RMS deviation of the momentum from its mean (the standard deviation of P):
can never be smaller than a fixed fraction of Planck's constant

The very thing you use to claim "anything is possible" says that there are in fact things which are not possible:
1. It is impossible for anyone to know with precision both the position and the momentum of a particle.
2. It is impossible for the formula cited above to be smaller than a fixed fraction of Planck's constant.

So, I ask you again, which part of that principle, or any other, proves that "everything has a probability of occuring?"

I think I'm misunderstanding something in your statements above, I'll quote the seemingly contradictory parts here so you can explain them for me:
"Just because one can conceive there are such realms doesn't make them real any more than science's own mathematical claim of 9 dimensions.

Until something is true then the presumption is it's false. You have evidence?, well that evidence is in no other dimension than this observable one. What "is" is what's observable. A dream I have is a real dream but it's not part of reality (which is testable by anyone...gravity works the same all over).

Otherwise, as is the very case of metaphysics, anything one can speculate is possible until proven false."

Notice the italicized parts especially.
On one hand, when I come up with a theory, you say "until it is proven true, it is false."
On the other hand, when you want to defend your idea that "everything is possible" you say "until it is proven false, everything is possible."
So which is it? Is it possible until proven false? Or is it false until proven true? You can't have it both ways.

Last edited by kevin76; October 2nd, 2009 at 08:56 pm. Reason: thought it might be too long
- October 2nd, 2009, 08:56 pm
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kevin76 wrote :
Ah, so you're a science worshiper? You are of the opinion that there is no spiritual realm undetectable by science?
A "science-worshipper"... very good, Kevin (although the math equations might have been just a bit 'over the top' )! But you're right, it does seem like some folks can "worship" Science &" Logic" just as rigidly as any "fundamentalist", along with touting a whole lot of "dogma" of their own, about what's "real", "logical" and "worthy of investigation". Worse, these dogmatic believers in "Scientism" (and a very narrow definition of "Reason"), only succeed in further polarizing things, and tacitly lumping anyone with a natural spiritual inclination into the same category as the reactionary Creationists ("we didn't come from apes!", "man walked with dinosaurs!", etc.).

So it's a welcome development now that contemporary physics is starting to look more and more like philosophy, which has a rich history of seriously examining both Reason, and "the less quantifiable" aspects of existence.

And just as quantum research has proved that the "outcome" is affected by the "observer", then our own inherent limitations must also affect what's "knowable".

"If there was an ant hole next to a 10 lane super highway, do you think the ants could figure out the concept of the super highway? I don't think so."
Nice going there, "Sicilian Physics Girl" (BTW, wasn't Enrico Fermi Sicilian too...!?)!

Oh, and here's a beautiful recent example of what that "marketing scam", the "new & improved" Hubble Telescope has been capturing lately, including some of the farthest and youngest galaxies ever seen. Just personally, dunno how anyone can look at 'em and not have some sense of awe for both scientific discovery, and the "unquantifiable" (aka the Divine).


Last edited by ming_on_mongo; October 4th, 2009 at 08:38 pm. Reason: typo
- October 3rd, 2009, 08:48 am
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To say that some things "cannot be known to arbitrary precision" is hardly the same as to say "all things have a possibility of occuring."

If something can be in an infinite number of states then I do think that any event one can imagine - like a baseball through a lead wall - has a possibility associated with it.

And there's no elitism here at all... you said I was referring to something obscure. But Heisenberg isn't...it really is Quantum 101. So there was no attempt at elitism."

"It is impossible for anyone to know with precision both the position and the momentum of a particle."

Correct

"It is impossible for the formula cited above to be smaller than a fixed fraction of Planck's constant."

Correct.

But neither of these are events that can occur...and I said that...that obviously we're not talking about mutually exclusive events. There's no possibility that the Yankees can win last year's world series. It's not in the realm of the events possible in the hear and now.

That speaks to exactly what I said... that real events can really occur. Events mean they can occur...I'm saying that's what makes an event an event.

Supernatural events aren't real else they would be really measurable so a statement like "there are events that occur that we can't measure" or "things exist that we can't prove or disprove" don't make sense to me.

Lets say there is a supernatural or other realm that's outside our existence...ok...then who cares?...it's outside our existence!...it literally plays no role!

If it DOES play a role then it's an event in our reality and therefore not supernatural so until I see some evidence I'm not believing.

"So, I ask you again, which part of that principle, or any other, proves that "everything has a probability of occuring?"

The part that says that the thing exists.

"Until something is true then the presumption is it's false. You have evidence?"

Yes...it's the distinction of is and is-not. Things that are so, is, exist. Until they can be known to exist the presumption is they don't.

"On the other hand, when you want to defend your idea that "everything is possible" you say "until it is proven false, everything is possible."

Yes...and I said that was metaphysics. You just quoted it... "Otherwise, as is the very case of metaphysics, anything one can speculate is possible until proven false."
- October 3rd, 2009, 06:15 pm
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.....

If something can be in an infinite number of states then I do think that any event one can imagine - like a baseball through a lead wall - has a possibility associated with it.....

"It is impossible for anyone to know with precision both the position and the momentum of a particle."

Correct

"It is impossible for the formula cited above to be smaller than a fixed fraction of Planck's constant."

Correct.

But neither of these are events that can occur...and I said that...that obviously we're not talking about mutually exclusive events. There's no possibility that the Yankees can win last year's world series. It's not in the realm of the events possible in the hear and now.

Supernatural events aren't real else they would be really measurable so a statement like "there are events that occur that we can't measure" or "things exist that we can't prove or disprove" don't make sense to me.

Lets say there is a supernatural or other realm that's outside our existence...ok...then who cares?...it's outside our existence!...it literally plays no role!

If it DOES play a role then it's an event in our reality and therefore not supernatural so until I see some evidence I'm not believing.

"So, I ask you again, which part of that principle, or any other, proves that "everything has a probability of occuring?"

The part that says that the thing exists.

"Until something is true then the presumption is it's false. You have evidence?"

Yes...it's the distinction of is and is-not. Things that are so, is, exist. Until they can be known to exist the presumption is they don't.

"On the other hand, when you want to defend your idea that "everything is possible" you say "until it is proven false, everything is possible."

Yes...and I said that was metaphysics. You just quoted it... "Otherwise, as is the very case of metaphysics, anything one can speculate is possible until proven false."

If something can be in an infinite number of states then I do think that any event one can imagine - like a baseball through a lead wall - has a possibility associated with it.....


Here it seems to be you who are confusing a state of being with an event. Define "infinite number of states." There is actually a limit on the number of possible states of being - there are upper and lower limits on the position and momentum, it is only an "infinite number" if you break it down into infinitely small increments which make no real-world difference. And there are events that would not be possible in any of those states.

But neither of these are events that can occur..

Easy enough to make them into events: how about this?
A scientist measures both the momentum and the position of a quantum particle to infinite precision.
If a state of being is impossible, then the "event" of someone experiencing that state of being is also impossible.
Therefore, there are "events" that are not possible.

Unless of course you define (you haven't defined anything yet) "event" as "any occurrence which is possible." Then your statement would become true automatically - you would be saying "anything which is possible is possible."

Supernatural events aren't real else they would be really measurable so a statement like "there are events that occur that we can't measure" or "things exist that we can't prove or disprove" don't make sense to me.

Did atoms exist before science had reached the level where we could detect them?
Does "dark matter" exist?
Are there things in the center of a black hole that we have no way of measuring?
There is a difference between something being "not measurable" and something which we simply do not have the ability to measure (without further advancement in measuring devices, or further knowledge, etc.)
Is it really so unbelievable to you that science does not yet have the ability to know everything there is to know about everything that exists?
Because of our technology and intelligence, we have the ability to observe and analyze many things. If we had less of either, there would be more things that were beyond our ability to understand. It follows that if we had more of either (or both) then there would be more things we could understand.
A 'spiritual world' or 'higher dimension' with beings of greater intelligence and power may be beyond our ability to detect, and yet still able to effect our world at will.
If "all events are possible" how about this event? A purely spiritual God communicates with people in the physical world. Is that event possible?

As for the last section, correct me if I'm still misunderstanding, but you seem to be making a distinction between two categories of things.
There is one category of things (A) which you think it foolish to believe in until it is proven true.
There is a second and distinct category of things (B) which you think it foolish to disbelieve until proven false.
If that is the case, all that remains is for you to define what exactly fits in category A and what in category B, and how you make that distinction.
- October 5th, 2009, 08:31 am
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kevin76 wrote :
God: My view of God is of a Personal Being (as opposed to an impersonal force) who is Spiritual in nature (see previous definition,) who designed and formed the entire physical universe, intentionally and with a purpose, and who continues to be actively involved in its progress. The God of my understanding possesses intelligence, power, and the emotional and mental characteristics of a discreet individual.
Obviously there are a great number of people who don't share that definition of god, and that seems to be the point of this topic, am I right?


How can we have a legitimate discussion about what God is if everyone has their own private definition. There is no coherent ontology for God, and there is no evidence that such an entity has ever existed. This casts doubt on your personal definition of God corresponding to anything in reality.

YouTube - Sam Harris makes a joke and a point

YouTube - What is God?

YouTube - I am no longer an atheist
- October 5th, 2009, 07:31 pm
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Form the topic heading I get confused to the actual question. So I will answer it this way.

I think God is love.
now is God luck? no
we live and breath and that is from God he have us choices and by just going out the front door on any given day this is a choice we make and if by making that choice we have good or bad luck that is life what ever it may be. it is just a set of circumstance that happen while we live. In this world at large there are many choice that the millions upon millions face each and every moment and some cross each other and some don't the ones that do cross you are the choice that are given to all. Its like a large web all lines intersecting and at what point do they meet determines the outcome.

Last edited by sueyq; October 5th, 2009 at 11:52 pm. Reason: spelling errors
- October 5th, 2009, 11:34 pm
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ANDR3W wrote :
...blah blah "it's silly because I can make a joke about it" blah blah...

How can we have a legitimate discussion about what God is if everyone has their own private definition. There is no coherent ontology for God, and there is no evidence that such an entity has ever existed. This casts doubt on your personal definition of God corresponding to anything in reality.

...blah blah "it's silly because I can make a joke about it" blah blah...
How can anything ever be agreed on if there is no discussion?
You have a legitimate discussion about God the same way you have a legitimate discussion about any other concept - by communicating openly and each sharing your thoughts on the subject. How do you think any world philosophy ever developed initially?
Everybody has a private definition of everything. The only way to understand each other is for us to communicate those definitions so that we can at least know we are talking about the same thing.

And it helps to refrain from making generic assertions about the nature of reality, as if you understood all there is to know about everything. When people say "there is no evidence" what they generally mean is that they haven't personally witnessed any evidence that they accept as valid. Which is not surprising, when you start with the assumption that something doesn't exist you're not likely to see any signs of it even when they are right in front of you.

If you don't want to talk about it, then don't talk about it. Why do you feel like you have to ridicule and bash those who have a different opinion than you?
- October 6th, 2009, 08:55 am
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ANDR3W wrote :
How can we have a legitimate discussion about what God is if everyone has their own private definition. There is no coherent ontology for God, and there is no evidence that such an entity has ever existed. This casts doubt on your personal definition of God corresponding to anything in reality.
Gee, wouldn't it be nice if all of us always had the same "definition" of everything...?! We'd have no need for laws, diplomacy, politics, philosophy, crime, wars, etc., etc....

And do I misunderstand, or are you actually suggesting that if something's not "proveable" or "quantifiable", it doesn't exist (or worse, that we can't discuss it)?

BTW, isn't anyone who claims to have the "one, true" handle on anything (even "reason"), doing exactly what some religions attempt to do?
- October 6th, 2009, 10:22 am
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