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awol71 awol71 is offline
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
Merriam Webster must be written by Christians.
Please tell me more about this Christian conspiracy.
(Sorry Dennis, I just couldn't resist.)

- November 2nd, 2009, 03:53 pm
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awol71 awol71 is offline
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notyet wrote :
(atheists) generally believe there is no god
(atheists) hold that the universe is without a non-physical cause.
(atheists) believe that life arose through macro-evolution via natural selection
(atheists believe) in the tenets of what passes for "science" in our modern secular western culture.
Funny thing is, atheists (around here) frequently don't realize that atheists simply "don't believing in god" (according to one recently given definition, with or without the further belief that there is no god). There are many flavors of it. For instance, it is not incompatible with all religions (Buddhism is an atheist religion). Some famous atheists (Friedrich Nietzsche, Jean-Paul Sartre) really didn't care about the science : their position was philosophical. None of the statements above are necessarily true of all atheists (except the first, if you define atheists like that).

DennisWisconsin wrote :
Truth is atheists are inherently independant and don't really accept doctrine as a matter of principle and don't have accepted sources of authority such as popes, priests, etc
I just want to make this clear : "independent" is a feature of critical thinking (which involves making up your own mind about the evidence that has been presented to you). Whether someone is a critical thinker has nothing to do (specifically) with whether someone is an atheists.
Last edited by awol71; November 2nd, 2009 at 05:00 pm. Reason: (grammar)
- November 2nd, 2009, 04:56 pm
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ming_on_mongo ming_on_mongo is offline
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"Merriam Webster must be written by Christians."


I think he means it's the Atheist's equivalent of the "Liberal Media"....!
- November 2nd, 2009, 04:57 pm
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
We have passed laws denying basic civil rights against whole segments of our society based upon the religious belief that marriage is a religious issue. Of course I am talking about gay rights.
I'm snickering because, at my church, which is a mainstream denomination, the head of the fellowship committee is a lesbian. She and her partner are there every Sunday, and she frequently needs to announce new projects during the services.

I have to admit, it kind of surprised me, since this is a hot issue among Christians. But she's very friendly and persuasive, and willing to do the work, so she's the logical choice. Even the old folks are fine with it. Either that or they think she and her partner are just really good friends...
- November 2nd, 2009, 05:12 pm
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WeDesignOurLives WeDesignOurLives is offline
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awol71 wrote :
I just want to make this clear : "independent" is a feature of critical thinking (which involves making up your own mind about the evidence that has been presented to you).
I contest...

.. a rationalization is about making up your own mind about the evidence presented. (It's a person thinking that god must exist because the universe had to have a beginning.)

A critical thinker would say "why do you presume the universe had to begin?" and "Why does anything have to begin?" and accept the most rational conclusion they can make and then perhaps seek to challenge it by reading the details of the critical thinking of others.

I was not terribly happy when I concluded at age 11 that there was no god (or rather no evidence) and I reviewed that thinking up and down for 2-3 days before I would accept it.

If you're committed to truth then you accept the results of the critical thinking regardless how you feel about it. If god didn't create the universe how did it start? The presumption is that it did. What's the evidence for that? Is there some universal law that says everything must begin and end? How about one that says that everything that begins must end?

So critical thinking leads me to end up with that begin and end are human constructs and that it's perfectly legit for the universe to have always existed which doesn't feel right at all but that's how I (and others far smarter than I) see it.

So I don't know why it's independent any more than any other thinking an individual does.
- November 2nd, 2009, 06:32 pm
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awol71 wrote :
I just want to make this clear : "independent" is a feature of critical thinking (which involves making up your own mind about the evidence that has been presented to you).
WeDesignOurLives wrote :
I contest...

.. a rationalization is about making up your own mind about the evidence presented...
You may contest all you like. Those who are interested may validate my interpretation of "critical thinking" against other references such as this one and make up their own minds : Critical thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. A "rationalization" is a different thing (at no point did I use that word, nor did I want to use it, because it is usually pejorative : Rationalization (psychology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

WeDesignOurLives wrote :
So I don't know why it's independent any more than any other thinking an individual does.
"Independent thinking" is still "thinking", of course. In this context, "independence" generally refers to the fact that we make up our own mind (as opposed to letting others make it up for us, which is what we seem to do when we accept what other people say without questioning it). More technically speaking, a "critical thinker" is much less prone to accept "arguments from authority".

I was using "independent" in the way that I had understood it in Dennis' post, as equivalent to "critical thinkers". I believe that is what he meant, given the phrases that followed : don't really accept doctrine as a matter of principle and don't have accepted sources of authority. Dennis, would you be so kind as to say if this is what you meant?

WeDesignOurLives wrote :
So critical thinking leads me to end up with that begin and end are human constructs
Although I'm not questioning the rest of your post, I feel you should ask yourself where the problem really is. How is an "infinite regression" any less of a human construct than an "uncaused cause"?
- November 2nd, 2009, 07:44 pm
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"Those who are interested may validate my interpretation of "critical thinking"

I don't recall you made any claim that this was your own interpretation...without that folks might assume you're talking about the actual real idea.

"How is an "infinite regression" any less of a human construct than an "uncaused cause"

Well ultimately every construct is just a construct because it's just an invention of language. When you say "any less" it's not clear whether you're talking about a conventional, moral, or other quality.

Conventionally stealing a dollar is worse than stealing a penny. Morally it might be the same... one shouldn't steal, period.
- November 5th, 2009, 09:02 pm
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.. a rationalization is about making up your own mind about the evidence presented. (It's a person thinking that god must exist because the universe had to have a beginning.)

Well those are really different aren't they - the assertion and the erstwhile parenthetical support....

A critical thinker (defn how and by who) would say "why do you presume the universe had to begin?" and "Why does anything have to begin?" and accept the most rational conclusion (again, who's defn? Is the Ms. Universe pageant? Are you Bob Barker?) they can make and then perhaps seek to challenge it by reading the details of the critical thinking of others.

I type, therefore I am HERE. Just call me a "sentient" bug and give me a Latin name....

However intelligent and informed we may be, there is a universal that is beyond us. I will assert that we keep both our senses and our spirits.
- November 7th, 2009, 11:12 am
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Nylit Nylit is offline
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But doesn't our Constitution say:
"One nation under God"? Therefore, we base our laws up that principal.
Right or wrong in your eyes or anyone's its how our nation was founded,, go back in time and change it if it bothers you that much.
Oh geez!! Why did I jump in this discussion I am not as deep as you guys are.
And technically speaking if there is gay rights (which, btw, I have nothing against), and gays marry.
Then mankind will die out eventually unless we mass produce test tube babies.
I think gays do well as parents in a lot of ways, but as for marriage , I hope we don't all go gay, or we are a dead race. LOL
And don't jump on me,,I am sensitive today
- November 7th, 2009, 10:48 pm
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Nylit wrote :
And technically speaking if there is gay rights (which, btw, I have nothing against), and gays marry.
Then mankind will die out eventually unless we mass produce test tube babies.
You've accidentally stumbled upon my evil plan!

I'm trying to heavily promote it amongst the female population, thus freeing up all of the men for myself!

If there's plenty left over, I might be willing to spare a few...
- November 8th, 2009, 05:44 am
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