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TaoShaffer TaoShaffer is offline
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I'm sorry you don't want to stay.

I know we sometimes get embroiled in argument and feelings get hurt.

I suppose it's little comfort to say that I've enjoyed the back and forth on this thread. I rarely get a chance to have these kinds of discussions. And would whole-heartedly like you to stick around.

If it's any consolation your position is difficult when trying to meet Atheist argument on a scientific ground. My counter move to your best card (the impossibility of knowing everything, so why can't there be one?) was going to be something along the lines of "well then the Thor, Aphrodite, Allah, Viracocha, Shiva, Santa, the Easter Bunny, and an invisible parrot on my shoulder must exist too since we don't have all the information as well. Would have been a lot of fun.

Here's a pointer for the future. Don't try to argue knowledge and science with an Atheist, try instead to argue on the basis of the heart. Feelings, benefits of prayer (there have been scientific studies to suggest that meditation can be benficial btw), and (because your a Christian) God's Grace.

Sometimes I wish I could argue from such grounds and believe it. It would be so maddening to everyone else.

--Tao
- July 6th, 2009, 02:49 am
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DennisWisconsin DennisWisconsin is offline
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It is difficult when an entity like the Christian Church relys completely on faith when putting forth its message. I could say gobaldy guke... I have no facts but have faith... and then you would just believe gobaldy gook?

They just found the oldest new testiment book hidden in some church supposedly written in the 4th century and it shows how the bible has been changed over the centuries to serve the ends of those in control. I can't help but think that the original was written for the same pupose.
- July 6th, 2009, 04:51 am
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TaoShaffer TaoShaffer is offline
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DennisWisconsin wrote :
It is difficult when an entity like the Christian Church relys completely on faith when putting forth its message. I could say gobaldy guke... I have no facts but have faith... and then you would just believe gobaldy gook?

They just found the oldest new testiment book hidden in some church supposedly written in the 4th century and it shows how the bible has been changed over the centuries to serve the ends of those in control. I can't help but think that the original was written for the same pupose.

I read that BBC article I wasn't aware that they'd translated it however? My understanding was that's they'd posted the manuscript on the internet for rresearchers to collaborate on.

--Tao
- July 6th, 2009, 05:17 am
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TaoShaffer TaoShaffer is offline
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I was under they impression that they hadn't translated it yet they'd just posted it for study?

--Tao
- July 6th, 2009, 05:27 am
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DennisWisconsin DennisWisconsin is offline
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TaoShaffer wrote :
I was under they impression that they hadn't translated it yet they'd just posted it for study?

--Tao
I heard an interview this morning of one of those people studying it. If you go to NPR's website there may be a transcript... I'm at work so I can't right now.
- July 6th, 2009, 08:07 am
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TaoShaffer TaoShaffer is offline
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I don't know I would hope that Christianity, like everything had, its "innocent" period where it was actually believed from top to bottom with no one having designs on controlling others.

--Tao
- July 6th, 2009, 02:30 pm
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rix rix is offline
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TaoShaffer wrote :

If it's any consolation your position is difficult when trying to meet Atheist argument on a scientific ground. My counter move to your best card (the impossibility of knowing everything, so why can't there be one?) was going to be something along the lines of "well then the Thor, Aphrodite, Allah, Viracocha, Shiva, Santa, the Easter Bunny, and an invisible parrot on my shoulder must exist too since we don't have all the information as well. Would have been a lot of fun.

Here's a pointer for the future. Don't try to argue knowledge and science with an Atheist, try instead to argue on the basis of the heart.

First of all, I appreciate a well-reasoned argument. And, dislike intellectual dishonesty on both sides of the issue. However, the tactic you mention has been overly tried and tested and found left wanting. And, I sincerely hope you can come up with a better line of argumentation than the collective reductionism of the "Zeus, Odin, sky-god, 'flying spagetti monster'" sophomoric tirade ( The "flying spagetti monster" bit would have been cute, if original. However, I have discovered that it did not originate with the atheist who first posted it on this site. But it has been circling around for a few years).

I would also dispute the implication that atheists have the corner on science and knowledge. Atheist writers of the nineteenth century were the first to contend that the burden of proof lies with the theist, and that the atheist has no responsibility to offer any validation for their position. However, such an assumption is misguided, and the issue is not in debunking imaginary creatures, but whether or not there is an intelligence behind the existence of the universe.
Last edited by rix; July 7th, 2009 at 03:24 am.
- July 6th, 2009, 05:03 pm
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RoxyRedhead RoxyRedhead is offline
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Chawks-if you are reading...
If one of us went to the plethora of Christian, Muslim, Wiccan etc sites online and posted Atheist dogma we would be blasted and lambasted from here to the moon.
I really don't think I misread your post, the one I quoted..You said exactly what I cut and pasted--then deny it when called on it.
What do you expect?
On one hand you say you aren't here to convert us and OTOH wonder why we are closed minded.
I'm no spring chicken, was raised in a very strict Christian household and studied religious philosophy in college (50 years ago).
I have come to my belief of non belief in a supreme power, entity or being thru reading and study and prayer for faith!
It was much more difficult to abandon the faith I was raised in (and be abandoned by the siblings who still practice that faith) than to just passively accept that their teachings are the truth.
Yet my mind told me I was fooling myself. My searches told me I was fooling myself and of course the prayer accomplished nothing.
Good for you for your faith-we live in a country that allows each of us to make that decision-and this group is formed by people of no faith or of doubtful faith.
Stay-debate-but be prepared to be called on your assumptions and doublespeak if you post.
If you need to be reassured that you're correct than post those thoughts on a Christian site where folks will agree with you.
BTW-I call myself a Buddhist as I practice that philosophy (it's not a religion)-but this is the group I most identify with.
Rox
- July 6th, 2009, 09:50 pm
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RoxyRedhead RoxyRedhead is offline
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Thanks for the welcome Dennis-I love debate and reading well thought out and fair minded philosophical discussion such as I find here.
Rox
- July 6th, 2009, 09:54 pm
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TaoShaffer TaoShaffer is offline
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rix wrote :
First of all, I appreciate a well-reasoned argument. And, dislike intellectual dishonesty on both sides of the issue. However, the tactic you mention has been overly tried and tested and found left wanting. And, I sincerely hope you can come up with a better line of argumentation than the collective reductionism of the "Zeus, Odin, sky-god, 'flying spagetti monster'" sophomoric tirade ( The "flying spagetti monster" bit would have been cute, if original. However, I have discovered that it did not originate with the atheist who first posted it on this site. But it has been circling around for a few years).

I would also dispute the implication that atheists have the corner on science and knowledge. Atheist writers of the nineteenth century were the first to contend that the burden of proof lies with the theist, and that the atheist has no responsibility to offer any validation for their position. However, such an assumption is misguided, and the issue is not in debunking imaginary creatures, but whether or not there is an intelligence behind the existence of the universe.
True. True. And True.

But it's no fun simply to say, "the burden of proof lies on your shoulders" because it ends up that both sides take that position and arguments don't get fielded. It's synonymous in mind of sticking my head in a hole and waiting for everyone to go away.

I enjoy debating and honestly I've never had a chance to properly field the above mentioned "flying spaghetti monster" argument. Sometimes its liberating to play in the mud. Sometimes its easier to be the fool than the sage.

Is there an intelligence behind the universe? Why would there be? What would be the purpose? Or assumed purpose? What can this "intelligence" do? If anything? Did it evolve or was it always there? What is its relevance?

It's just not a question that I find much interest in really... Too many unknowns, too many variables and no evidence to suggest that such a thing exists. Any discussion on the matter would be pure speculation.

--Tao
Last edited by TaoShaffer; July 7th, 2009 at 04:18 am.
- July 7th, 2009, 04:14 am
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