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mermaid2244's Avatar

mermaid2244 the term paper is done AND submitted a day early!!

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I don't know why I'm throwing myself on this grenade, but.......

I'm coming down with a crappy summer cold, and I probably should just crawl back into bed, and keep my ever-loving mouth shut. But I'm not going to - and I'm not going to track down the post of whoever said the Catholic Church believes homosexuality is a sin so I can quote it. Pretend that I did:

The church does not say that being gay is a sin. The church says sex outside of marriage is a sin. Don't matter who with who. Now, gays are SOL because the church won't allow gay marriage (though I do know my particular Catholic church has blessed gay marriages).

There's probably some ignorant priests out there who misinterpret the rules out of their own homophobia. Doesn't make it true.

And lastly, this thread icks me out. I don't know why it's acceptable to tell gay jokes. Would you go back and do the same jokes with race or religion?

But I am a long time supporter of freedom of speech. So, I'll return you to your regularly scheduled thread, and I'll stop reading it, and I'm going to pass over the gay jokes. They hurt my heart.
- August 9th, 2009, 08:25 am
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Lostintranslation lives in Florida - I was just at the pool. In October!

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I can promise you that most, if not all, gay people would far rather be involved in a discussion with love and humor about their lives than be told by you that they are 'SOL' (your abusive term, not mine) when wanting a valid recognized union between themselves and their partner. Further, to have entire religions deny their right to love and live in productive, joyous comingled bliss with a person their heart chooses to love should be a right afforded to everyone. That hurts my heart and makes my brain catch fire.

I do not believe CSC is the place for this particular discussion. I am beginning to think that CSC is no longer a place for me. Religion has been something that has been respectfully left out of CSC for the obvious reasons and I won't sully this place with any further comment -- we've all been able to get along until now -- this really makes me feel creepy.

Edit: Condemning sex outside the marriage and then not recognizing gay marriage is an end-run around the real solution and is no solution at all. It is exactly the same thing as saying: you can be gay, just don't act on it. If a church sanctions gay marriages then it will likely not be recognized by the Catholic church much longer.

I will not post again on this topic it is entirely too inflammatory and certainly not appropriate for this forum.

Last edited by Lostintranslation; August 9th, 2009 at 08:47 am.
- August 9th, 2009, 08:43 am
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When_I_See_You_Smile Something caught WISYS's attention... and refused to give it back to her.

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mermaid2244 wrote :
I don't know why I'm throwing myself on this grenade, but.......

I'm coming down with a crappy summer cold, and I probably should just crawl back into bed, and keep my ever-loving mouth shut. But I'm not going to - and I'm not going to track down the post of whoever said the Catholic Church believes homosexuality is a sin so I can quote it. Pretend that I did:

The church does not say that being gay is a sin. The church says sex outside of marriage is a sin. Don't matter who with who. Now, gays are SOL because the church won't allow gay marriage (though I do know my particular Catholic church has blessed gay marriages).

There's probably some ignorant priests out there who misinterpret the rules out of their own homophobia. Doesn't make it true.

And lastly, this thread icks me out. I don't know why it's acceptable to tell gay jokes. Would you go back and do the same jokes with race or religion?

But I am a long time supporter of freedom of speech. So, I'll return you to your regularly scheduled thread, and I'll stop reading it, and I'm going to pass over the gay jokes. They hurt my heart.
Thank you for clarifying my comment about the Catholic Church (I did not want to get into that last night). You are probably right, in that priests can and do influence their congregations; growing up believing that it's a sin, had to come from somewhere (parents, priest, passed down from earlier generations, etc...). I am glad to hear that your church has blessed some gay marriages; that is rare indeed.

IMO, it is not acceptable to tell gay jokes, or those dealing with race or religion. It's not funny.

Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. But, as you can see, I have taken a h.ell of a beating here, all for expressing my own opinion.

Right now, I am extremely upset and hurt.
- August 9th, 2009, 09:03 am
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Lostintranslation lives in Florida - I was just at the pool. In October!

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Taken from the Daily Mail on AUGUST 9, 2009. This ought to be recent enough Catholic Church position for all of you.

"The Pope has declared that saving the world from homosexual behaviour is as important as saving the rainforests.
In a Christmas message, Benedict XVI stressed the importance of traditional marriage and condemned gay acts as against God's will.

He also attacked transsexuals, saying: 'It is not man who decides who is a man or woman but God.'

Pope Benedict, 82, known as God's Rottweiler for his hardline views, made the comments in his festive address to the Vatican's governing body, the Curia.

He said: 'The Church must defend not only the earth, the water and the air as gifts of creation belonging to everyone, but it must also protect mankind against the destruction of itself.

'The tropical forests deserve our protection, but man as a creature deserves it no less.'
In a clear reference to homosexuality, he said the failure to respect the union between a man and a woman amounted to the 'auto destruction of mankind'.

Humanity needed to 'listen to the language of creation' to understand the intended roles of man and woman, he added. Anything that deviated from this was a 'destruction of God's works'.
The Pope – who acquired a reputation as an aggressive, doctrine-enforcing cardinal before he was appointed to the Vatican top job – also defended the Church's right to 'speak of human nature as man and woman, and ask that this order of creation be respected'.


Vatican spokesman: Father Federico Lombardi said the Vatican continues to condemn the use of the death penalty

The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are a sin. It opposes gay marriage and, in October, a leading Vatican official called homosexuality 'a deviation, an irregularity, a wound'.

This month the Vatican opposed a proposed UN declaration, backed by all 27 European Union states, calling for an end to the practice of criminalising and punishing people for their sexual orientation.

The declaration was seen as an important condemnation of countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, where homosexuality can be punished by death.

A Papal spokesman was later forced to clarify that the Vatican continues to condemn the use of the death penalty for any crime, including any related to homosexuality.

Instead, the Vatican said its opposition to the UN proposal was driven by concern that countries that prohibit gay marriage would somehow be targeted.

The Italian gay rights association Arcigay branded this an 'excuse' to distract people from the real intent of criminalising gays.

The Pope also used yesterday's address to criticise the idea that he is seen by the young as some form of rock star.

He said Christian gatherings such as World Youth Day should not be seen as 'a sort of rock festival modified in an ecclesiastical sense'.

The week-long youth festival in July culminated in a mass celebrated by Benedict in Sydney, attended by some 350,000 people

Read more: Homosexuality is as great a threat as rainforest destruction, says Pope | Mail Online

Last edited by Lostintranslation; August 9th, 2009 at 09:30 am.
- August 9th, 2009, 09:15 am
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Lostintranslation lives in Florida - I was just at the pool. In October!

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I did it, I said I wouldn't post again but the truth seemed important here.
- August 9th, 2009, 09:20 am
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When_I_See_You_Smile Something caught WISYS's attention... and refused to give it back to her.

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I did it, I said I wouldn't post again but the truth seemed important here.
It is important. The religious aspect is only one of a slew of things that my family has had to deal with. If I didn't know, first-hand, how much pain my brother has been through, I may not have said anything. I could have just stated, that I find the comments offensive, and left it at that. Doing so, certainly would have been easier, and a lot less humiliating.
- August 9th, 2009, 09:45 am
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LIT, if I may interject my pennies of thought here...

Please stop. You did absolutetly nothing wrong! Do not fall prey to this turmoil.

I know that I have not posted much lately, but that does not mean that I do not know what CSC is all about!

WISYS, LIT said it best when she said that she wished you would have sent her a PM. If something offends or bothers you to the point that you feel the need to make a public statement about it, it needs to be valid. You were out of line with this one. Regardless of what has been said since your initial post, you are the one that needs to apologize, and move on. You brought your hurt feelings on yourself.

You directly hurt LIT with your initial post. She did not even acknowledge you with hers. You took it badly, that's your problem to solve in 'private'. When you bring it into the open, you then get everyone's opinion...like it or not!
- August 9th, 2009, 09:48 am
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When_I_See_You_Smile Something caught WISYS's attention... and refused to give it back to her.

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m8se69 wrote :
LIT, if I may interject my pennies of thought here...

Please stop. You did absolutetly nothing wrong! Do not fall prey to this turmoil.

I know that I have not posted much lately, but that does not mean that I do not know what CSC is all about!

WISYS, LIT said it best when she said that she wished you would have sent her a PM. If something offends or bothers you to the point that you feel the need to make a public statement about it, it needs to be valid. You were out of line with this one. Regardless of what has been said since your initial post, you are the one that needs to apologize, and move on. You brought your hurt feelings on yourself.

You directly hurt LIT with your initial post. She did not even acknowledge you with hers. You took it badly, that's your problem to solve in 'private'. When you bring it into the open, you then get everyone's opinion...like it or not!
My initial comment was not directed to Lit, as I have stated multiple times. My comment was to the entire group, regarding posts that have been made (over the last couple of months), by many other posters. The reason I said something, is b/c it concerned a change that has now become common rhetoric here. This has nothing to do with any one particular poster, but rather the subject matter that is now apparently acceptable.

Lit and I DID have a private conversation, yesterday, where we cleared everything up. In fact, she was never upset.

Regardless, I have been apologizing, since my first reply to Lit's initial post.
- August 9th, 2009, 10:06 am
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Lostintranslation lives in Florida - I was just at the pool. In October!

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There's never any good way to step out of a discussion on homosexuality and/or religion. My beliefs are liberal, non-religious and wholly my own. I go absolutely rabid when anyone suggests that homosexuality is an abomination, aberration, wrong, bad, impure, against a diety or otherwise. I can't stop that and I won't.

There is a large part of me that delights in messing with people's perception of reality - attempting to provoke thought and acceptance where that might not be any. I enjoy exposing someone to a different viewpoint and, failing that, at least to an agree to disagree.

I delight in the absurd. I think it is important to use words that are taboo and use them repeatedly - I believe the world needs more open minds and less condemnation of what I see as real and immediate. As Americans, our vocabulary is woefully short of words to describe ourselves as individuals in ways that make us happy and shine with everything inside of us that is unique.

I recognize that this doesn't fit with mainstream and seldom does this bother me. I love humor and I love the humor that is simultaneous grotesque, weird, awkward, painful and wrong. For example, Sam Kinison once said, in a comedic bit about homosexuality, "How can one man look at another man's hairy (backside) and find love?" I laugh every time I hear that. I have a dear, dear friend, a gay man and he will laugh with me and joke and with tears in his eyes will say, "Kirsten, do you think I choose this because it is easy or fun? It is who I /am/."

WISYS is correct - I was never angry and was talking through my own thoughts. I did not go further with them because I learned a long time ago that if you really say everything that is on your mind there are penalties and I did not want to feel unwelcome or shunned in a place I love so much. So, it is easier to modify myself than to expect a group to behave in a way that is utterly in line with what I think and believe.

So, where do I or we go from here. I keep trying to step out of this and it isn't working. I enjoy a good debate but this is NOT NOT NOT Completely Stupid Conversation. It is too personal and too close to far too many people. I disagree with many of you but that doesn't color my ability to love or care for you, even if you are heterosexual.

I don't know what to say, I am not angry but I still say you can't just say what you want or need and not have people who have needs and wants that are counter to yours.

This is crazy -- and not in that fun spanky way.
- August 9th, 2009, 10:26 am
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When_I_See_You_Smile Something caught WISYS's attention... and refused to give it back to her.

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There's never any good way to step out of a discussion on homosexuality and/or religion. My beliefs are liberal, non-religious and wholly my own. I go absolutely rabid when anyone suggests that homosexuality is an abomination, aberration, wrong, bad, impure, against a diety or otherwise. I can't stop that and I won't.

There is a large part of me that delights in messing with people's perception of reality - attempting to provoke thought and acceptance where that might not be any. I enjoy exposing someone to a different viewpoint and, failing that, at least to an agree to disagree.
... which is what you explained you were doing yesterday. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a debate, or asking someone to be a little more open-minded about something. We worked through our difference of opinion, and came to an understanding. Hence, the camp chair and band conversation.


I delight in the absurd. I think it is important to use words that are taboo and use them repeatedly - I believe the world needs more open minds and less condemnation of what I see as real and immediate. As Americans, our vocabulary is woefully short of words to describe ourselves as individuals in ways that make us happy and shine with everything inside of us that is unique.

I recognize that this doesn't fit with mainstream and seldom does this bother me. I love humor and I love the humor that is simultaneous grotesque, weird, awkward, painful and wrong. For example, Sam Kinison once said, in a comedic bit about homosexuality, "How can one man look at another man's hairy (backside) and find love?" I laugh every time I hear that. I have a dear, dear friend, a gay man and he will laugh with me and joke and with tears in his eyes will say, "Kirsten, do you think I choose this because it is easy or fun? It is who I /am/."
Exactly. In my experience, dear friends and loved ones, may indeed laugh, but it's with tears in their eyes. Living as a gay or lesbian, is not easy. They didn't choose this life.


WISYS is correct - I was never angry and was talking through my own thoughts.
Thank you for clearing that up.


I did not go further with them because I learned a long time ago that if you really say everything that is on your mind there are penalties and I did not want to feel unwelcome or shunned in a place I love so much. So, it is easier to modify myself than to expect a group to behave in a way that is utterly in line with what I think and believe.

So, where do I or we go from here. I keep trying to step out of this and it isn't working. I enjoy a good debate but this is NOT NOT NOT Completely Stupid Conversation. It is too personal and too close to far too many people. I disagree with many of you but that doesn't color my ability to love or care for you, even if you are heterosexual.

I agree. This was never about one particular poster, only a sensitive subject. I care about all of you so much. I am just upset that this conversation turned into a war on censorship, instead of an opportunity to understand each other a little bit better.

I don't know what to say, I am not angry but I still say you can't just say what you want or need and not have people who have needs and wants that are counter to yours.

Of course not. Creating awareness was my objective.

This is crazy -- and not in that fun spanky way.
You're telling me!
- August 9th, 2009, 11:06 am
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