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rix rix is offline
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Ugidali wrote :
we are to judge those who claim to be Christians. Those are the only people we are to judge, as God judges the others.
peace.

We do not have the right to judge someone else, regardless of their profession of faith - before their own master they stand or fall. The only person we have a right to judge is ourself. We cannot presume to know the heart or intentions of another. We can only examine our own lives. And for me personally, that is a full time job!
- October 26th, 2009, 05:46 am
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lindseyk lindseyk is online now
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rix wrote :
We do not have the right to judge someone else, regardless of their profession of faith - before their own master they stand or fall. The only person we have a right to judge is ourself. We cannot presume to know the heart or intentions of another. We can only examine our own lives. And for me personally, that is a full time job!
I think Ugidali might be referencing I Corinthians 5: 12-13, which states:

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

I Corinthians 5 deals with the problem of allowing immoral people to remain in the church and the damage they can do to the body of believers. Although Paul is speaking to a specific incident in the Corinthian church, parallels can be drawn between that church and the church today. There is immorality in the modern church, as well as pride, boasting, etc. These are very real problems that are attached to very real people among us. We do have a responsibility to judge on these matters, and therefore to judge these people on the basis of their actions and the negative effects they have on the body of believers.

Paul writes in verses 9-11:

"I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."

I could be wrong, but I think Paul placed so much importance on this because really, to do such things while calling oneself a brother - a Christian - is the height of hypocrisy. It is returning to and embracing everything one left behind to follow Christ. Worse, according to Paul, the people doing this in Corinth were proud of their sin and even boasting of it. If it could happen in Corinth, it can certainly happen in the church today. As Paul notes, " . . . a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough . . . therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth."

I think we do need to pay attention to what is going on in the church and the kinds of activities people are engaging in that can have a negative impact on the rest of the believers. Certainly we all need to be aware of and take responsibility for our own actions and responses to things, but the longer a negative influence is around, the more its impact is felt. It is hard to resist the temptation to sin when those around you claiming to be fellow Christians are engaging in activities that are clearly contrary to God's Word. We are to flee from sin, not invite it in and get cozy with it. Fleeing doesn't mean sitting back and praying about what we should maybe do about its presence among us. It means getting rid of it - immediately - and to do that, judgement of both persons and activities is necessary.
- October 26th, 2009, 10:59 am
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kevin76 kevin76 is offline
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rix wrote :
We do not have the right to judge someone else, regardless of their profession of faith - before their own master they stand or fall. The only person we have a right to judge is ourself. We cannot presume to know the heart or intentions of another. We can only examine our own lives. And for me personally, that is a full time job!
You are right that it is neither our job nor our right to judge another person's salvation. God will take care of that. Nor can we read their hearts and judge their motives. But there are other kinds of 'judgment' that can and must be made daily - we can't live without making some kind of judgment at some time.

So then, what does it mean to "know them by their fruit?" In the context Jesus was talking about those who pretend to be Christians yet by their actions cause division and destruction within the church. I can't judge their motives or their salvation, but I can and must recognize certain behavior as destructive, and act to protect myself and others from being destroyed by it.

Everyone applies that principle to dating - we 'judge' one person to be the type we want to date, and 'judge' another person to be someone we don't want to date. It has nothing to do with their salvation or even necessarily their honesty or intentions. It's just that we can't marry everybody, so we have to make a decision based on something, and every decision involves a sort of 'judgment.'

The same can be applied to all our other interactions with people. If a coworker of mine is continually gossiping about others, even to the point of making things up, then I should recognize that and act on it - by not listening to or believing everything they say, and by not telling them anything I want to remain a secret. That kind of 'judgment' has nothing to do with salvation or motives. Whether they are saved or not, and whether their intentions are innocent or not, I 'judge' their conversation as untrustworthy and refuse to participate in it.
- October 26th, 2009, 12:17 pm
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TracyBluebird TracyBluebird is offline
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kevin76 wrote :
So then, what does it mean to "know them by their fruit?" In the context Jesus was talking about those who pretend to be Christians yet by their actions cause division and destruction within the church. I can't judge their motives or their salvation, but I can and must recognize certain behavior as destructive, and act to protect myself and others from being destroyed by it.
I really wanted to help my exhusband to heal, or at least acknowledge his demons, but I couldn't let my kids continue to be hurt by it---they were and are my gifts and my responsibility.

kevin76 wrote :
Everyone applies that principle to dating - we 'judge' one person to be the type we want to date, and 'judge' another person to be someone we don't want to date. It has nothing to do with their salvation or even necessarily their honesty or intentions. It's just that we can't marry everybody, so we have to make a decision based on something, and every decision involves a sort of 'judgment.'
I have evolved into really trying to see everyone, even really evil people, through God's eyes, not to judge them, but to understand and have compassion for them. I don't want to be condescending to anyone, but I tend to think "yikes, how did they end up acting/being/looking/thinking that way!"

I do have a quite different criteria or scale for any potential partners in the future than I had previously. My judgement will still impact my children, and that is my primary consideration. They didn't have any choice in the matter, and I did and do have choices. If I end up being alone until they are older, I am prepared to do that.
Last edited by TracyBluebird; October 27th, 2009 at 02:32 pm. Reason: typo
- October 27th, 2009, 02:29 pm
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FaithNGod FaithNGod is offline
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chawks64 wrote :
Not trying to stir anything up or antagonize, but I think we sometimes need to be reminded of 2 points:

1. Not all Christians have the same theology and may understand the Bible to mean different things or have a different interpretation of it. That may or may not have any bearing on their salvation. None of us is omniscient, so I would hesitate to evaluate the state of someone else's salvation or relationship with Christ based solely on our own theological conclusions. Feel free to choose not to befriend or date them, and to stick to your own interpretations, but I would again hesitate to outright judge their faith without having the mind of God.

2. Knowing someone by their fruits is an excellent verse. Keep in mind that some fruits may look healthy and pleasing but in reality be bitter. Usually it just takes time for the truth to come out, but I've seen wonderful things done for selfish motives. We are only fallible human beings and do not have the judgment abilities of God.

Just throwing my 2 cents worth in.
I would have to agree with Amy. I dont believe that we are given the charge to know a tree by its fruit to use as a speck finder in others. But first judge our selves before the word of God and evaluate our own heart and actions through the leading of the spirit of God and repenting where needed. Second if we do see some one whos fruit is less than saviory we have a resonsibility in love to confront them in it. They might not even be concious of what they are doing. The scriptures tell us that the older women teach the younger and the older men teach the younger. This is spiritual maturity and not age. It is a loving act to in gentleness confront a person who is walking a path of destruction and it is unloving to sit by and watch them drive right over the cliff to their death.
- October 29th, 2009, 07:18 am
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lindseyk wrote :
I think Ugidali might be referencing I Corinthians 5: 12-13, which states:

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

I Corinthians 5 deals with the problem of allowing immoral people to remain in the church and the damage they can do to the body of believers. Although Paul is speaking to a specific incident in the Corinthian church, parallels can be drawn between that church and the church today. There is immorality in the modern church, as well as pride, boasting, etc. These are very real problems that are attached to very real people among us. We do have a responsibility to judge on these matters, and therefore to judge these people on the basis of their actions and the negative effects they have on the body of believers.

Paul writes in verses 9-11:

"I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."

I could be wrong, but I think Paul placed so much importance on this because really, to do such things while calling oneself a brother - a Christian - is the height of hypocrisy. It is returning to and embracing everything one left behind to follow Christ. Worse, according to Paul, the people doing this in Corinth were proud of their sin and even boasting of it. If it could happen in Corinth, it can certainly happen in the church today. As Paul notes, " . . . a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough . . . therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth."

I think we do need to pay attention to what is going on in the church and the kinds of activities people are engaging in that can have a negative impact on the rest of the believers. Certainly we all need to be aware of and take responsibility for our own actions and responses to things, but the longer a negative influence is around, the more its impact is felt. It is hard to resist the temptation to sin when those around you claiming to be fellow Christians are engaging in activities that are clearly contrary to God's Word. We are to flee from sin, not invite it in and get cozy with it. Fleeing doesn't mean sitting back and praying about what we should maybe do about its presence among us. It means getting rid of it - immediately - and to do that, judgement of both persons and activities is necessary.
Amen!!! Preach it sister
- October 29th, 2009, 07:22 am
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Here is a thinker for you all. We are actually called to approach our fallen brethren and correct(rebuke) them. First one one one, then two people, then three, then before the congregation, then guess what. If they are still unrepentant we let them out of the church to live in the world, check your word on that y'all. If a person says they are a believer and show no fruit, they will be cast into the fire, quoting Jesus again there, you want to argue, argue with him, not me (=. If you are a believer for any length of time then you will at least produce some fruit of the spirit, and hopefully impacted some lives around you. remember were not of this word(NOTW). Like Christ said, his kingdom is not of this wold, the question you got to ask yourself is, are you a part of his kingdom? If so produce some fruit and serve your master, Jesus Christ. Another thing to note the translation of Christ is Messiah. try reading your bible and think messiah when you see Christ, things will make a lot more since.
- November 1st, 2009, 09:34 pm
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I would caution everyone to remember Jesus also said that there would be tares with the wheat and that this would be taken care of in the end times. I have been in the situation at church where they gossiped about me and parted the waters when I walked in because they disapproved of me and what I was doing. But no one came along side me in love like Jesus did to Mary and talked to her. He showed her compassion and kindness and then exhorted her to sin no more. I was not sinning but I was treated like a leper because of my decision to divorce my husband who was abusive. He spread rumors and lies about me to cover his sin. No one knew and I did not reveal his sin but my sisters and brothers in Christ judged me. If I had been a young Christian I probably would have fallen away because of their treatment of me. But the Lord taught me over that time, which was more than a year, not to presume and assume, to be less judgmental, and to come along side the fallen brother or sister and pick them up. We in the church are the worst at attacking our wounded and fallen. We need to love them like Jesus did, who didn't tolerate the sin, but truly loved the sinner in such a compassionate way that it caused them to repent and change the direction of their life.

12So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

13)bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. Col 3:12-14 NASB
Bear One Another's Burdens

1Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
2 bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. Gal 6:1-2 NASB

16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

17Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.
18Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:16-20 NASB

13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2: 13 NASB

So be rich in mercy and loving when you approach those who you feel need to be corrected, and do it in the spirit of gentleness. Be kind and patient, bear one another's burdens and pray for those who you feel are not walking as the Lord would have them walk. You have been given a special privilege to see their need and with that privilege comes responsibility - the effectual prayer of a righteous person affects much. Be like Jesus who prayed on the cross for His murderers, liars,mockers, and torturers to be forgiven and not be held accountable. Stand in the gap, war effectively for our brothers and sisters, leave no man behind, and lift them up in prayer when they have fallen. :-)
- November 7th, 2009, 11:37 pm
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I think we should know them by their fruit too., Christ healed on the Sabbath, Took down the market in his temple and was not seen as a conformist but as a rebel. I think looking at the fruit is big, discernment is essential, and checking our own hearts for motivation and accusational behavior is key. In these days careful is not an option, including being careful with ourselves.
- November 13th, 2009, 11:15 am
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