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wildman wildman is offline
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wildman Was dancing around the mulberry bush until he discovered it was poison ivy

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I don't know, after reading Genesis 19 it seems pretty clear to me that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah primarily due to homosexuality. I never have seen God call inhospitality an abomination as he has homosexuality. Good to see all the christians on CS giving their view of that chapter.
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:26 pm
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BeccaBear BeccaBear is offline
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abjon wrote :

I struggle with it all, though, in that I still can't come to terms with the deaths of innocents in the struggle of powers, in Job as well as the Sodom and Gomorrah and in the stories in the prophets.


Me too.


Leaving aside whether God destroyed Sodom and Gormorrah because of homosexuals or lack of hospitality, why punish every baby, every child, every man or woman? Surely the babies weren't homosexuals. Surely not every man there was homosexual or where did Lot's girls go looking for a man? What about the animals in these villages? What did they do wrong? It seems like the OT God is often painted as using a blunt instrument--as in kill them all--as opposed to a more refined weapon that targeted the bad guys whoever these may have been.


There was a rather telling You Tube video making the rounds a little while ago that pictures a pretty little girl out in the fields, with her equally cute puppy, chasing beautiful butterflies. The video ends with the child, the puppy, the butterflies, all being destroyed in the Flood. Again such a violent, un nuanced response to a perception of wrong doing. Few that watched the video felt that God was justified in saying that even the little girl or puppy deserved to be killed or bought the idea that she was somehow so unrighteous that all she deserved was to be swept away in God's anger at some, surely not all of creation.


There is much that I find utterly morally reprehensible in the Bible. If this is damning: too bad.




Am I correct in assuming much of this happened before the time of Jesus Christ and if that is the case then God wasn't as forgiving then as he is now. I feel perhaps, that maybe God is justified in ending the life of "innocents" if you wish to call them that, if it meant saving them the pain of eternal damnation for living a life of sin and hate.When I was a child I had often wondered why God has let me live through my birth to be put through a life where everyday I am tempted and tested and treated like a lesser person because of my weight. I wondered why God hadn't spared me the pain and let me enter the gates of heaven before I ever knew what pain was. I still do from time to time. I guess I see death as a child to be more merciful than lettingthat childfall into a life of sin and mistrust. But I must clarify that I don't mean that we as humans get to make that decision. As an human we should want to protect children from the evils of the world. Just saying, that when one is able to know a person before they know themself and know what that person will end up becoming, well, maybe it is for the best?
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:30 pm
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abjon abjon is offline
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wildman wrote :

I don't know, after reading Genesis 19 it seems pretty clear to me that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah primarily due to homosexuality. I never have seen God call inhospitality an abomination as he has homosexuality. Good to see all the christians on CS giving their view of that chapter.
It is not clear to me that you are right and Ezekiel is wrong. It is not clear to me that Jesus' reading of this story in terms of inhospitiality is wrong and you are correct.
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:33 pm
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BeccaBear BeccaBear is offline
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I just want to throw this out there.
Genesis18:22-33


I find this amusing. Abraham and God are bartering over a city. I kinda lol'd at this.
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:37 pm
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abjon abjon is offline
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BeccaBear wrote :

Oh, and abjon, would be so kind as to tell me where the story ofSodom and Gomorrah starts? I'd like to read for myself, this chapter, as it's been awhile and my memory is vague.
I think it is best to start with Genesis 18 and the story of Abram and Sarah's hospitality to the angels (or God) and go from there...
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:38 pm
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BeccaBear BeccaBear is offline
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abjon wrote :

BeccaBear wrote :


Oh, and abjon, would be so kind as to tell me where the story ofSodom and Gomorrah starts? I'd like to read for myself, this chapter, as it's been awhile and my memory is vague.


I think it is best to start with Genesis 18 and the story of Abram and Sarah's hospitality to the angels (or God) and go from there...
Yea, thanks I found it a couple of minutes ago.
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:44 pm
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BeccaBear wrote :

abjon wrote :


I struggle with it all, though, in that I still can't come to terms with the deaths of innocents in the struggle of powers, in Job as well as the Sodom and Gomorrah and in the stories in the prophets.


Me too.


Leaving aside whether God destroyed Sodom and Gormorrah because of homosexuals or lack of hospitality, why punish every baby, every child, every man or woman? Surely the babies weren't homosexuals. Surely not every man there was homosexual or where did Lot's girls go looking for a man? What about the animals in these villages? What did they do wrong? It seems like the OT God is often painted as using a blunt instrument--as in kill them all--as opposed to a more refined weapon that targeted the bad guys whoever these may have been.


There was a rather telling You Tube video making the rounds a little while ago that pictures a pretty little girl out in the fields, with her equally cute puppy, chasing beautiful butterflies. The video ends with the child, the puppy, the butterflies, all being destroyed in the Flood. Again such a violent, un nuanced response to a perception of wrong doing. Few that watched the video felt that God was justified in saying that even the little girl or puppy deserved to be killed or bought the idea that she was somehow so unrighteous that all she deserved was to be swept away in God's anger at some, surely not all of creation.


There is much that I find utterly morally reprehensible in the Bible. If this is damning: too bad.








Am I correct in assuming much of this happened before the time of Jesus Christ and if that is the case then God wasn't as forgiving then as he is now. I feel perhaps, that maybe God is justified in ending the life of "innocents" if you wish to call them that, if it meant saving them the pain of eternal damnation for living a life of sin and hate.When I was a child I had often wondered why God has let me live through my birth to be put through a life where everyday I am tempted and tested and treated like a lesser person because of my weight. I wondered why God hadn't spared me the pain and let me enter the gates of heaven before I ever knew what pain was. I still do from time to time. I guess I see death as a child to be more merciful than lettingthat childfall into a life of sin and mistrust. But I must clarify that I don't mean that we as humans get to make that decision. As an human we should want to protect children from the evils of the world. Just saying, that when one is able to know a person before they know themself and know what that person will end up becoming, well, maybe it is for the best?
Yes, certainly Soddom and Gormorrah, the Flood, Job are all Old Testament stories and so pre date Jesus. I wonder though, assuming I am understanding you correctly, is it a case that God has changed, has become more forgiving or is that our perception of God has changed, that now we see God through Jesus and this has changed our ideas of God.


I can only repeat that I find the idea of God killing innocent babies and children difficult to understand or accept. I see where you are going with your argument. But in terms of moral philosophy an argument along the lines that the end justifies the mean is a pretty slippery slope.


Now perhaps I am missing your point and this is not what you meant, at all.
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:46 pm
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coeuri coeuri is offline
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abjon wrote :

I struggle with it all, though, in that I still can't come to terms with the deaths of innocents in the struggle of powers, in Job as well as the Sodom and Gomorrah and in the stories in the prophets.


Me too.....


There is much that I find utterly morally reprehensible in the Bible. If this is damning: too bad.




That is why I am so glad of the psalms because, frankly, some of the writers say some pretty put donw kind of comments toward God. They give me the way to allow my honesty to God so that I can get through the feelings inside to the place that I can pray. They teach me that it is okay to ask God why and to not understand, even to get mad sometimes......
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:48 pm
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BeccaBear BeccaBear is offline
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wildman wrote :

I don't know, after reading Genesis 19 it seems pretty clear to me that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah primarily due to homosexuality. I never have seen God call inhospitality an abomination as he has homosexuality. Good to see all the christians on CS giving their view of that chapter.
I have to ask you to quote what made it pretty clear to you. I have just read it three times and still I do not find anything about homosexuality of any kind.
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:52 pm
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BeccaBear BeccaBear is offline
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abjon wrote :

BeccaBear wrote :


abjon wrote :


I struggle with it all, though, in that I still can't come to terms with the deaths of innocents in the struggle of powers, in Job as well as the Sodom and Gomorrah and in the stories in the prophets.


Me too.


Leaving aside whether God destroyed Sodom and Gormorrah because of homosexuals or lack of hospitality, why punish every baby, every child, every man or woman? Surely the babies weren't homosexuals. Surely not every man there was homosexual or where did Lot's girls go looking for a man? What about the animals in these villages? What did they do wrong? It seems like the OT God is often painted as using a blunt instrument--as in kill them all--as opposed to a more refined weapon that targeted the bad guys whoever these may have been.


There was a rather telling You Tube video making the rounds a little while ago that pictures a pretty little girl out in the fields, with her equally cute puppy, chasing beautiful butterflies. The video ends with the child, the puppy, the butterflies, all being destroyed in the Flood. Again such a violent, un nuanced response to a perception of wrong doing. Few that watched the video felt that God was justified in saying that even the little girl or puppy deserved to be killed or bought the idea that she was somehow so unrighteous that all she deserved was to be swept away in God's anger at some, surely not all of creation.


There is much that I find utterly morally reprehensible in the Bible. If this is damning: too bad.








Am I correct in assuming much of this happened before the time of Jesus Christ and if that is the case then God wasn't as forgiving then as he is now. I feel perhaps, that maybe God is justified in ending the life of "innocents" if you wish to call them that, if it meant saving them the pain of eternal damnation for living a life of sin and hate.When I was a child I had often wondered why God has let me live through my birth to be put through a life where everyday I am tempted and tested and treated like a lesser person because of my weight. I wondered why God hadn't spared me the pain and let me enter the gates of heaven before I ever knew what pain was. I still do from time to time. I guess I see death as a child to be more merciful than lettingthat childfall into a life of sin and mistrust. But I must clarify that I don't mean that we as humans get to make that decision. As an human we should want to protect children from the evils of the world. Just saying, that when one is able to know a person before they know themself and know what that person will end up becoming, well, maybe it is for the best?


Yes, certainly Soddom and Gormorrah, the Flood, Job are all Old Testament stories and so pre date Jesus. I wonder though, assuming I am understanding you correctly, is it a case that God has changed, has become more forgiving or is that our perception of God has changed, that now we see God through Jesus and this has changed our ideas of God.


I can only repeat that I find the idea of God killing innocent babies and children difficult to understand or accept. I see where you are going with your argument. But in terms of moral philosophy an argument along the lines that the end justifies the mean is a pretty slippery slope.


Now perhaps I am missing your point and this is not what you meant, at all.
I don't really mean justifying a means to an end, but I mean, maybe in this cruel and horrible fashion God was saving these people. If there had been no innocents in Sodom except the young children and God had killed all the others, would it have been more cruel to let the children die long drawn out deaths because they couldn't take care of themselves?
- March 2nd, 2009, 08:56 pm
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