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James, I hope you know I respect you and your opinions; just as I respect the others who have posted on this particular topic. I won't address your comments directly, because I disgaree with just about everything you said, and to do so would be to throw gasoline on the fire. I have no interest in debating. Neither of us will change the opinions of the other, so I see such debate as situationally irrelevant.


The only reason I posted at all-- and perhaps I was ignorant to believe it would work this way-- was to encourage people not to cause hurt or stress or anger by making certain strong statements. I was attempting only to shine the light on myself as an example of someone who is a relatively active poster in this groupand also happens to disagree with the right-wing conservative Christian movement.


Because it is personal. I have seen Christian message boards, groups, friendships, and even churches torn apart when politics are brought into the mix. I don't care what you say, there is nothing righteous about tearing down others. Now I am going to respectfullystep out of this thread. If someone is interested in challenging me on any of these points, I encourage you to send me a private message. I'll engage in discussion, but I will not respond if it sounds like you are just looking for a fight.
- October 9th, 2008, 12:53 pm
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why do you people start threads like this then stick your fingers in your ears and run away anytime someone disagrees with you?

seriously though given that some 3,000 of the united states best economic workers where killed, with all of their contacts, and the absence of any replacement structure with the same footprint for corporations to conduct business with one another i would be hesitant to blame the economy on any one.

given that obama, and other democrats helped get legislation to force fredi-mac and a few other large corporations to have a minimum investment in sub prime, pronounced 'bad loans', and that they control congress at the moment, and that congress has a larger hand in the economy than the president, i would tend to lay most of the economic troubles at democratic feet.

given that in other countries i have personally seen socialism lead to famine, and economic ruin, you will have to excuse my distrust of most policies advanced by the democrats

next looking at this thread, the only support you have put forward for the democratic party is 'i loves me my money!' where as other people have advanced some measures of support for the republicans(admitably in an evil democrats form), and given that america is effectively a binary political system, one has to support the lesser evil which in this case is the republicans.

finally all the christians (who walk in the faith) i know who claim to be democratic have voted practically exclusively republican in the past ten years. so from reason, logic, and experience i would have to say that, sunny, your claims need to be proved. explain to me how a christian could vote democrat. defend your party. don't get me wrong, at this point your vote won't determine your salvation, but i don't see how you as a christian can vote democrat, feel free to enlighten me.
- October 9th, 2008, 07:47 pm
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Oh hey, why not, I'll jump in -- I am a Christian and a Democrat. Why? Lots of reasons. I hate the hypocracy of those who claim to be "conservative" and laugh about executing a woman who converted to Christ (Geo W. Bush); claim to be for smaller government and instead have made it huge, larger than ever; claim to be against foreign entaglements with not exit strategy and yet get us in the largest mess maybe forever; claim to be conservative on money and yet take a surplus and literally change it to the largest deficit ever (the counter cannot even make that number); claim to be fair minded people yet keep playing the political game n teh dirtiest way possible (claiming Obama is not Christian or that he hates the USor pals around with terrorists, those are just lies and yet people belive them); lie to the American people about why we went to war in Iraq and are never called on to be honest; claim to love the USA and yet they ruin parts of our God inspired Constitution and again are never called to task on it; I can go on. Are the Dem's perfect? Heck no. But, it's the lesser of evils.
- October 9th, 2008, 08:05 pm
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I'm sure this is a USA domestic debate, but a quick thought from across the seas.


Whether it's a so called "Christian Democrat" or "Christian Republican" that is elected the world including those with an anti-US agenda can't see the difference, as far as the international community is concerned McCain and Obama are exactly the same... except that one is considerably younger than the other


Similar to Australia, the USA have a dominant 2 party system which are so similar these days because they each have a populist agenda and can only see as far at the next election.


Once a candidate is elected in a representative democracy, the "President" toes the party line so to speak, and merely expresses the influences of the international and internal party forces, after all that is what keeps the president elect in the top job and their need for speech writers.


oooooh, am I a cynical or dis-illusioned voter? Neither I'm an informed non-partisan Christian voter, which I believe voters in a democracy system should be. Rather than voting based purely on Party allegiance.








- October 12th, 2008, 12:19 am
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Well I'll probably either be A) having my post removed for saying this or


B) banned altogether BUT I'll say it anyways





the USA has devolved into this mess we're in, it simply stupifies me how short a time it took for this country to nearly collapse. The problem is we've broken covenant with God that our forefathers and founding fathers set up in the first place. The seperation of church and state in the early 60s was the precursor to this mess. Yes the church should be seperate from state affairs in that the State as it were shouldn't edict what the church does. HOWEVER, the problem is the removal of God from our country at the same time...There's gonna be some that disagree with me heavily on this but we need God BACK in our schools, back in our workplaces, back in our Government and most importantly WE NEED GOD BACK IN CONTROL OF OUR LIVES!


We've become too desensitized to the world's understanding as christians we're commanded by God himself to be IN the world NOT OF the world and too much today in this country of ONE NATION UNDER GOD I see that commandment breaking under the stress of an ever vigilant super liberalistic society bent on happy feel good.


We turned our backs on God and told him to go away so many times, we asked him to go away, we told him he wasn't welcome here. So now that he eases back we go crazy asking "WHERE IS GOD?!" "GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN US?!" "GOD PLEASE HELP OUR LAND!!" We as christians should be praying to God to forgive us for wounding his spirit by sitting idly by watching OUR country collapse upon itself. Did our forefathers die for our liberties for nothing? Did their prayers for Us their future generation go unheard?


I say no! Now is the time to pray hard for the next President of the USA the One Nation UNDER GOD! Don't be swayed by whatever sensational story the mass media develops about Obama or McCain or the VPs. Find the truth yourself and Ask God to guide you as vote this coming election. McCain Nor Obama can fix this country w/o God coming back to his people, pray to God and remind him of the prayers our forefathers lifted up for us and pray that the government will learn to step on a few toes and ReDeclare this ONE NATION UNDER GOD!
- October 12th, 2008, 03:45 pm
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j2 wrote :

...and given that america is effectively a binary political system, one has to support the lesser evil which in this case is the republicans...
This author states it far more eloquently than I could...


'Compromise is often touted as a virtue. But what is usually put upon a pedestal behind a gauzy curtain is a package deal containing two different concepts under the same label. The first concept is the coming to an agreement on details under a shared basic principle, and the second is the destruction of both sets of basic principles to meet in the muck halfway between.


Life is not about some epic clash between the mighty forces of good an evil. Evil is impotent and parasitic. Good is living life and flourishing. Evil is finding someone or something which is good and tearing it apart in hopes of gaining something from the pieces. Evil is incompetent. It can only survive through mooching off of the competent. Without good there is no evil, and evil exists only to the extent that the good allow themselves to be preyed upon, to be compromised.


When good and evil compromise, it is evil that wins. Good can only lose by compromising; evil can only exist through the act of compromise. When there is an attempted compromise between honesty and dishonesty, the result is dishonesty. When there is an attempted compromise between justice and injustice, the result is an injustice. When there is an attempted compromise between rationality and irrationality, the result is irrational. When there is an attempted compromise between integrity and not acting in accordance with ones convictions, the result is an act not in accordance with one's convictions.


The advocating of compromise as a virtue follows the standard package deal formula. It holds up the first concept, haggling over details, as an obvious example of a good thing, then equates that with the second concept, the destruction of principles. This bait and switch tactic is a back door to moral relativism, the principle that any system of ethics or principles is just as valid as another. A compromise on a basic principle is the destruction of that principle, and a compromise on a good principle is the lifeblood of evil.'


What happens when both candidates become two sides of the same coin? Why does one have to vote for the less dirty shirt? Why not take the time to find a clean shirt? It's the only conscionable thing to do.
- October 13th, 2008, 11:21 am
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J_Aeon wrote :

Well I'll probably either be A) having my post removed for saying this or


B) banned altogether BUT I'll say it anyways





the USA has devolved into this mess we're in, it simply stupifies me how short a time it took for this country to nearly collapse. The problem is we've broken covenant with God that our forefathers and founding fathers set up in the first place. The seperation of church and state in the early 60s was the precursor to this mess. Yes the church should be seperate from state affairs in that the State as it were shouldn't edict what the church does. HOWEVER, the problem is the removal of God from our country at the same time...There's gonna be some that disagree with me heavily on this but we need God BACK in our schools, back in our workplaces, back in our Government and most importantly WE NEED GOD BACK IN CONTROL OF OUR LIVES!


We've become too desensitized to the world's understanding as christians we're commanded by God himself to be IN the world NOT OF the world and too much today in this country of ONE NATION UNDER GOD I see that commandment breaking under the stress of an ever vigilant super liberalistic society bent on happy feel good.


We turned our backs on God and told him to go away so many times, we asked him to go away, we told him he wasn't welcome here. So now that he eases back we go crazy asking "WHERE IS GOD?!" "GOD WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN US?!" "GOD PLEASE HELP OUR LAND!!" We as christians should be praying to God to forgive us for wounding his spirit by sitting idly by watching OUR country collapse upon itself. Did our forefathers die for our liberties for nothing? Did their prayers for Us their future generation go unheard?


I say no! Now is the time to pray hard for the next President of the USA the One Nation UNDER GOD! Don't be swayed by whatever sensational story the mass media develops about Obama or McCain or the VPs. Find the truth yourself and Ask God to guide you as vote this coming election. McCain Nor Obama can fix this country w/o God coming back to his people, pray to God and remind him of the prayers our forefathers lifted up for us and pray that the government will learn to step on a few toes and ReDeclare this ONE NATION UNDER GOD!
Awesome post! People seem to forget we are electing a President, not a King. Neither candidate will be able to fix the mess we are in. The younger voters are hearing "change, change!", but they haven't been around long enough to have heard this promise over and over. We need term limits in Congress and the Senate, but that will probably never happen.





- October 13th, 2008, 01:58 pm
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actual a forced retirement age would work as implementing on anyone 70+ would eliminate pretty much 90% of congress and 30% of the senate lol
- October 13th, 2008, 04:45 pm
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TexasCarGuy wrote :

Oh hey, why not, I'll jump in -- I am a Christian and a Democrat. Why? Lots of reasons. I hate the hypocracy of those who claim to be "conservative" and laugh about executing a woman who converted to Christ (Geo W. Bush); claim to be for smaller government and instead have made it huge, larger than ever; claim to be against foreign entaglements with not exit strategy and yet get us in the largest mess maybe forever; claim to be conservative on money and yet take a surplus and literally change it to the largest deficit ever (the counter cannot even make that number); claim to be fair minded people yet keep playing the political game n teh dirtiest way possible (claiming Obama is not Christian or that he hates the US or pals around with terrorists, those are just lies and yet people belive them); lie to the American people about why we went to war in Iraq and are never called on to be honest; claim to love the USA and yet they ruin parts of our God inspired Constitution and again are never called to task on it; I can go on. Are the Dem's perfect? Heck no. But, it's the lesser of evils.
first i appreciate your honesty, but i would like to go into the specifics of what you said. please comment.

before i get into it i wanted to say something about the parties. they are like axis in wwII japan and germany were not really allies, they just had the same enemies, same with usa/england and communist russia. if you really want a party honest to their values and not just winning, you want to join a special interest. for example if you want to protect your 2nd amendment rights join the nra. they don't sell in to what candidates say, and they hold them accountable for their records. not only that but they will vote republican or democrat just on their values. sadly i have yet to find a christian special interest group that is honest to their ideals, meaning you have to personally dig up these peoples records if you can.


"I hate the hypocracy of those who claim to be "conservative" and laugh about executing a woman who converted to Christ (Geo W. Bush) "

the more i think about it the more i think you are ether a sick sadistic petty, or alternatively, naive person if you fail to smile at this. first naive. be honest, how many people would claim to be christian if it would get off of death row or worse a get out of jail card for converting? how many of them would truly change/convert? you know you can't make christianity any form of a get out of jail free card. now to the sadistic part. you know i can't help but smile to think of my sister. (for i truly hope sister she is.) she is no longer caged like an animal, she no longer lives without hope of seeing a sky that isn't framed between four concrete walls, no she is free, i'm a soul sleeper myself, but even i smile to think that the next thing she knows she will be in our Fathers arms. yet you want a human to be penned up in a cage, no hope of ever being free. doomed to grow old and die of old age trapped in a room to witch she will never own the key. reasonable odds that for the next fifty or sixty years she would not even get too own a pencil or pen. trapped with people who can and are not unwilling to kill some one should they ever get a few sheets of newspaper. you want her to suffer through all that when heaven waits. for the unbeliever, i understand your position, even max security containment is immensely preferable to hell. but for what do you want her to suffer? no amount of pain on her part can ever bring her victim back, why not send her to the life were what she did does not matter? true, i am in favor of death sentences. i don't see why we locking humans up in cages until they eventually die is preferable to putting them out of their misery (though i do see giving them a relitivly long appeals process). i don't see why we want to spend money keeping them in these cages when we could spend it on other programs such as public health, or orphanages to save lives, help keep people healthy, or care for the needy. under funding takes the lives of people and lowers their standard of living. just keeping one human caged for ten years will take more money than it would take to save lives.... yet you seem to want people locked in cages rather than helping people who at the least have not been convicted of any crime as great as your prisoners. i am tiered of the hypocrisies of your side. you deny the afterlife, call Jesus a lier (for what els is it if you believe that being locked in a cage is better than the afterlife for a christian?) and cry mercy when all you want is mercy on your self because you would rather someone suffer than think about someone dieing that you know of, never mind that estimates indicate that globally you kill tens to thousands of children every day just on the off chance you might be saving some birds, yes that irritates me. admit ably some dems. are against the last bit.

for the government, and the wars, clearly we have varying views of the democrats involvement in particular. i will admit that i take issue with much of what the republicans do do. simply in the issues i mentioned i have rarely seen a democrat who was a lesser evil to his republican counter part. in those few occasions i voted dem.(i can only think of one but then my voting record is not two deep, nor is it public record for me to get an exact count.)

'claim to be fair minded people yet keep playing the political game n teh dirtiest way possible (claiming Obama is not Christian or that he hates the US or pals around with terrorists, those are just lies and yet people belive them); '

your honestly telling me that democrats never do any of that? honestly? and you want to blaim the republicans for what every person who doesn't like obabama says? for every prank email? what any troll might post? i can see getting offended when an actual republican says something without adequate fact checking, but honestly the dems. do it too, as does most everyone. further your argument assumes that the republicans are united, organized, and in enough control of their membership that they all believe the exact same things, never do anything that the republican concensis does not like, and no one ever does anything in the republicans name without republican approval. by the same logic you want all religious people to be persecuted because i met democrats who want the marriage license of any one who put down a religion to be revoked/and or killed. lets be honest the reps and dems both have their share of nuts....

"lie to the American people about why we went to war in Iraq and are never called on to be honest"

given the people i have talked with, and my personal knowledge of the 'third world' and the black market, i have to say that you simply are much more incorrect than you think. but then why get into the best way to dump weapons on a global scale? mind you i think the war is handled very wrong, but sadly it is politically necessary... but then getting in to this would mostly involve history lessons and the best methods of conducting guerrilla warfare, noting the collisions that these things must inevitably have with more leftist world views. interesting but rarely a productive conversation.

'claim to love the USA and yet they ruin parts of our God inspired Constitution and again are never called to task on it'

curious, what exactly are you talking about?

'But, it's the lesser of evils.'

so for you some odd thousand abortions per day are out weighed by the deaths of a comparatively small number of inmates.

democratic bloat-government is less than republican bloat-government, surprising given the socialist leanings of the left....

you seem to feel political rantings are a largely republican phenomenon, that they have full control of all their members, and can keep people from speaking out in their name, and it is worthy to be considered a serious issue.

the only one that makes sense to me is the war bit, and on that, we just have too vast a difference in experience for me to ever see the world working the way you think it does, and you probably just can't accept my views on it.
- October 13th, 2008, 04:58 pm
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MagyarSHU wrote :

The advocating of compromise as a virtue follows the standard package deal formula. It holds up the first concept, haggling over details, as an obvious example of a good thing, then equates that with the second concept, the destruction of principles. This bait and switch tactic is a back door to moral relativism, the principle that any system of ethics or principles is just as valid as another. A compromise on a basic principle is the destruction of that principle, and a compromise on a good principle is the lifeblood of evil.'


What happens when both candidates become two sides of the same coin? Why does one have to vote for the less dirty shirt? Why not take the time to find a clean shirt? It's the only conscionable thing to do.
to use your shirt analogy. you have two shirts to choose from. thats it. your third shirt simply is far to small for you to ever put on. you can wander the streets naked looking for a clean shirt if you like, but you will have to where whatever muck covered shirt the other people choose from you. sadly your only choice is to ether pick the best shirt you can or hope someone else will pick one you like.

you are right compromise is mixing bad watter with good. the whole lot is made bad. but this analogy is not well placed on this scale. at this point the clear mountain streams have ran through miles and your only choice is to drink of the ocean or the brackish river, and hope that the brackish water will give you what you need to get to good watter. in order to not compromise you have to take up arms and go to war, your not voting just lets your 'evil' run unchecked and poison the well. your looking for a third party at ether the national, or even state level just means you let 'evil' do what it will.

compromise is not for when you can choose between good and bad, it is only for when you have to choose between bad. sadly in what government is a perfect choice available?
- October 13th, 2008, 05:21 pm
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