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cville wrote :
BajaSunset wrote :
I look forward to hearing the perspective of gentlemen on this topic. What are some things that successful, independent women can do to encourage meaningful dating experiences without letting the issue of financially independence interfere in fostering a relationship? Thanks!

BajaSunset,

I think the question is a great one. I also think it is interesting that women seem to think that the problem only lies with the male ego. I have just finished medical school and as an impoverished student I was always dating someone who made more money than me. Now I like smart, assertive and successful women. And I didn't feel embarrassed that being in med school kept me in the poorhouse. I did notice that despite the fact that I made considerably less money than some women I dated, they still expected me to pay. I was a little shocked to be living off of loans, and be called a cheapskate by a woman who had 3-4x the disposable income that I did; because after the first few dates I asked if we could start going dutch or taking turns. And I ran into this more than once. I think we are in a period of cultural adjustment. And while a lot of women like to be independant, there are still a lot of women who expect to be "treated" even when they are the ones with the money. So I would just put that out there. Perhaps the ladies should assess what the expect when being courted rather than worrying about the male ego.
I weed out the princesses by asking them to go "dutch" straight off. The vast majority of women - successful or not - refuse to pay their own way ona date. It's total BS that these women expect men to pay - especially when they make so much more than the man does! If eharmony expects to get more male customers, I suggest they start dealing with this politically-incorrect reality.
- April 19th, 2008, 07:26 am
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Joliona wrote :
This is similar to my situation. I am currently pursuing a PhD. and while men say that they LOVE an intelligent woman, many if not most men find the my education intimidating. I am confident and happy in my life course, it just seems that the pool of men interested in me shrinks as my level of education rises.
I am in a similar situation. I am a university professor in a small community where there are precious few men with my same level of education - and they all seem to be married! Of course, I date men who have less education (although I do require a college degree at least), and many of them seem taken aback by my Ph.D.

Moreover, they have no idea what is involved in a academic lifestyle.They think I have all of this free time because I "only" teach a few days a week. I find myself having to explain over and over again that I am working every day, even when I am at home. Some of them shake their heads as if this is a tragedy, and keep asking when I'll be free to take a weekend trip.

So it's true that having Ph.D. puts some men off who feel they cannot compete. And it is ALSO true that as I've become more educated, I've become more demanding of the men I date. I'm no longer satisfied with a man who cannot make interesting conversation, who seems unaware of the world around him, who holds outdated stereotypes, who is not growing as a person.

But all that said, I would NEVER trade my Ph.D. for more dates. My mind is my greatest asset, my greatest satisfaction, and my future security. I would never turn back the clock and give up all I have learned and accomplished just to be attractive to more men. I know that if I am patient and keep improving myself and living my life to the fullest, I will find the right man someday. Most of the female professors I know are married, so it's only a matter of time before it happens for me.

Hang in there and enjoy graduate school! Maybe the right man for you is just down the hall, or over in the library, or in the lab across campus. Keep your eyes open, but keep them on that Ph.D. prize as well. Take care of yourself first, and when the right guy comes along, you'll be ready.
- April 19th, 2008, 10:25 am
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Interesting tips,but the details seem to miss certain issues here in my opinion:

1) don't impress her with lavish dinners and gifts - ok so that pretty much means "don't be traditional about the courting thing."

2) a woman appreciates emotional intimacy with a secure man - What does "secure" mean in an economy that's as messed up as this? A working guy making less than 100K can't feel all that secure financially if that's what this means. And I would bet this links to emotional security too.So what does a "secure man" really mean? I take thisto mean "don't act like a man who's competitive" - after all, that's why the guy isn't making as much money as she is, right? This doesn't help a guyif he's tempted to give into this kind of thinking. He needs affirmation that he's the same competitive and achieving soul he has been all along. And if he's never believed this, then it's time toshake him up and get his game on.

3) can you learn to make the most of the money you have w/o feeling intimidatedby what she has? So if she's gone skiing in Tahoe, dipped her feet in the sands of the Galapagos, owns a BMW and still has a rockin'401K, he should really try not to feel intimidated by this? The alternative I've noticed is that guys will basically jump into 'play mode' and just tool around with her stuff since they've never had any of it and basically can't offer anything in return. Yeah I find that women find that really attractive. So the message here seems to say "don't think about measuring up to traditional masculinity, you'll never achieve it and impress her that way."

4) Don't expect her to constantly rearrange her schedule while yours stays intact. Ok so we have a guy who's making a lot less money than she is, and yet they're both supposed to be flexible with their schedules? the way I see it, both of them are working their butts off trying to maintain the salary they have. But the one is probably in a more vulnerable spot and stands to lose more as inflation kicks up. So given this dynamic, it seems like this is saying "at the risk of losing what little you already have, try to give up what little time you have so that the successful person you're with doesn't feel like she's having to make as many sacrifices." After all, she's gonna be paying for both of your bills anyway.Yeah that helps a guy feel better about his situation.

5) Let her pay sometimes. In other words "forget about being traditional." And what's really nice here "rise above the initial ego bruising."indeed. She makes more than you, you're not paying for dinner even, and shoot she has more money left over anyway- why not have her pay for the tickets to the game? After all it's just the initial ego bruising that matters right?

This feels like it misses a lot of important realities that decoupling financial dynamics and gender roles has on a relationship. Whether we like it or not, we're in a market economy that bases our worth, especially for men, on how much they earn. To tell men to "not be intimidated" understates the problem.

Instead I'd advocate some ways that still show a sense of masculine behavior. Instead of "don't be intimidated" talk, why not suggest pro-active things that a guy can do. First issue would have to be money. Forget about anything that resembles traditional masculinity when it comes to money, you're never going to win. But don't lose your competitive edge. Remind yourself of your own hard work and find dignity in doing a job well, regardless of what the market tells you of your worth. Society still values you more on your work than your "emotional security" so focus on working well and allow that to bolster your sense of security.

Don't connect yourown situation with hers when it comes to discussion over work. She has her agenda and it will only mess your game if you start comparing your worth withhers in the market. If anything, remind yourself that what you do is nothing like what she does - and that's why there's no comparing needed. She does her thing and you do your thing. She needs you to listen and that's it.

Don't give in to the temptation to be immature. I see too many guysthatseem to solve theirproblems at work with stuff that's not really helping anyone. Getting drunk regularly, playing video games regularly, gambling regularly - none of this is gonna get you a raise, it's not bringinganything to your mojo on the dating scene. You want to impress a woman that makes more money than you? Solve your problems like a man. Exercise, read, keep your mind active. Remember your dreams as far as work is concerned and push forward on them. And remember, don't compare your income with hers as you push forward on your dreams.She got to where she is for one reason or another; but that's not your story. Yours will be different and it will be yours.

But that's just one guy's opinion.
- April 23rd, 2008, 10:23 am
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I actually wouldn't care if my wife made a billion dollars a year. Money means nothing, aside from being a means to attain power, and in our society, there are too many rich megalomaniacs around so even one extremely wealthy person often can't make enough of a difference.

'Success' to me is not at all measured by how fat your wallet is. A lot seem to think so, though. I also think a lot of intelligent people deserve to be making a LOT more than they do; they usually are not making that much because of the cookie cutter education system which forces people to get a degree at a slow pace with many pointless classes thrown in between. Thiswastes a lot of time.



Maybe if the system were more based on intelligence and ability rather than number of years in college, and penchant for tedious work, thenmoney would be used more wisely....
- April 23rd, 2008, 11:31 pm
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Oh, and I don't care if you have a PhD either, but if you're full of intellectual/professional dogma, then that really willbugs me. This is especially the case with any soft/pseudo science like psychology.Real intelligent women and men understand that degrees are sort of a joke.
- April 24th, 2008, 03:20 pm
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jerrzbear wrote :

A working guy making less than 100K can't feel all that secure financially if that's what this means.
Coming from someone in the business of money, I feel I can say with some degree of certainty, that financial security has nothing to do with the amount of money that someone makes or has in the bank. It is this common misconception that destroys so much that is beautiful in this world, andconnecting one's emotional security to financial success or lack thereof is the most dangerous and destructive attitude I can think of;a cornerstone for much of our soul sickness.

I haveseen great riches and great poverty within my own short time.Now, I've made peace with money and its presence or absence in my life as it ebbs and flows through it. I use it as a tool to further my personal values when it is available to me and dismiss its power over me when it is not.

Love of money is indeed the root of all evil and this is no more apparent in one who has it than in one who does not. Make peace with money, people!Only then might you have a shot at making peace with yourself and be truly open for the experience of Love.
- April 24th, 2008, 03:59 pm
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Cleo Jones wrote :
So many men are intimidated by a woman who makes a lot of money but don't want to date "golddiggers" What gives?
That is so true.....

To some degree, I think the man feels less 'manly' if he is bringing home less money...it's def not a justifiable feeling but this is probably the case.
- April 24th, 2008, 04:07 pm
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AMEN, to this article! I recently came out of a relationship that I believe my financial success was a problem for him. The interesting part...he was an attorney! Due to a whole lot of work over the last few years, I am in a position to take some time off between jobs and it seemed to make him nervous...on the other hand, when he realized how much I earned in my last job, it flipped him out...let's put it this way, that was when he ended the relationship.

To the men reading this: do most men really prefer a women who is financially dependent on them? I look to a man for a whole lot more than money, as a matter of fact money would be last on the list, if it was on the list at all.
- April 25th, 2008, 11:05 am
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I am pretty successful and educated, and I agree that I totally don't mind being the "more educated" or more "successful" person in the relationship. That being said, I work in a field where most people don't make a ton of money, therefore, I would be okay with a guy who makes around the same money as me, although I would prefer that he actually make a little more. Why? It's actually a practical matter for me, I want to have children and while I don't intend to leave the workforce entirely, I'd like to have a little flexibility around this time. Pregnancy and childbirth can be frought with complications and I don't want to be sh&t out of luck if something happens and I can't return to work right away. I guess this also comes down to being fiscally responsible.



I personally don't like/need a lot of expensive flashy things and my heart is in simple things. Honestly, I'd prefer to not work and live my life exploring the outdoors, but the bottom line is..., we still need enough money in this world to support ourselves and our families, and to be somewhat prepared for the "unknown".
- April 25th, 2008, 12:48 pm
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What about when she is more successful by a factor of 1000?
- March 25th, 2009, 12:22 pm
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