tincup is offline tincup Post #1  October 17,2010, 9:45pm
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I'm sure this has been touched upon before, but I feel it necessary to get a larger discussion going. I've dated many people from EH. Some very beautiful, some not. In general, I'm not terribly picky and some of my most meaningful relationships have come from people that did not fit a universal definition of beauty. I'm a decent looking guy, not great, not bad. I'm under 30.

Several times recently I've been out with people who are carrying some extra weight. It was frustrating to me because I really liked their personalities. The weight is really a problem for me. If any of these girls had been in a more reasonable range, I don't think I would've had any problem with them.

I bring it up because I think it's a contemporaneous issue in society at large when states like North Carolina are considering levying a "fat tax." In the wake of massive debates around health care, it's a very germane topic. Leave the politics out of this; what is unimpeachable to both sides of the aisle is that excessive weight is a tremendous driver of health care costs in this country. I do not bring it up to hate on large people. If you want to write a reply that I'm shallow you're missing my point. I'm addressing a cultural consideration in the context of dating and sexual attraction.

What bothers me about weight is that it's the result of neglect of one's body. I understand there are cases where underlying medical illness is present, but statistically those cases are few and far between, and in many of the so-called medically justified cases of obesity, the medical condition itself is originally the result of a weight problem.

From a psychological standpoint I find it very unattractive. It makes me wonder how the person can have such lack of respect for themselves that they get this way. I understand that as we age, metabolism slows, and in general, maintaining a slender figure is far more difficult. I guess accordingly, this post is aimed at my peers in the mid-20's.

I didn't have a question in mind, rather just wanted to start a discussion. Discuss away....

Tincup
 
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livenlearn is offline livenlearn Post #2  October 17,2010, 10:01pm
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This topic comes up quite often around here.
Sorry about being so blunt about it last night.
But the thing that strikes me about this topic is how people can feel so superior over another in such a way and pretend it's for their own good.
When in fact it is just a covert way of judging anothers appearance.
I have never had a problem with weight. But I do know that people struggle with different things in life. Just because someones struggle is obvious why pick on them?
This world is already way too judgemental. Why add to it?
Last edited by livenlearn; October 18,2010 at 6:31pm. Reason: not as lazy and tired as last night
 
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Mythical is offline Mythical Post #3  October 17,2010, 10:11pm
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I don't think it's really a matter of people not wanting to take care of themselves. We all want that. No one is trying to eat themself into the grave. It's more of an issue about self control when it comes to things which society pushes on us, like sweets and fast food, etc. You know what they say, if it tastes good then it must be bad for you.

Having said all that... in my 40s... I know now how important it is that I maintain a healthy lifestyle or I'll quickly end up with high blood pressure, diabetes and some form of heart disease. So I try and eat better. I've lost 30 pounds and am one size away from my skinny self in high school. But the last 20 pounds just don't want to come off!!!

Interesting point though.

Sometimes I wonder if the heavy people have better personalities because they've learned to compensate for their weight by just being nicer. Idk, just a thought.
 
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chimerical is offline chimerical Post #4  October 17,2010, 10:28pm
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Okay. Well, first of all, you need to understand that physical health and longevity are not axiomatic goods, necessarily at the top of all a person's values. If they were at the top of my values, I would likely be a vegetarian, and would definitely not eat red meat or processed food. I would do low-impact cardio and weightlifting 5 out of 7 days a week, minimum. I would refrain from drinking alcohol, save perhaps red wine. I would wear the best athletic shoes I could afford, and only athletic shoes (no heels or flipflops, ever)...

...And on and on. There are many, many things involved in the prioritizing of one's health that most people do not currently do. Do you do all of them?

If you don't do all of them, it should make sense why some people do less than you. They value other things more: socializing at restaurants, the pleasures of cooking, the pleasures of drinking, etc.

I've admitted on here before that, medically speaking (looking at BMI charts, that is), I'm considered obese. Has it interfered with my love life? Not substantially. Has it prevented me from doing martial arts, from going for a run, from enjoying a hike or bike ride? No. My motivation for losing weight is supposed to be... what? A few more years of life in my 70's or 80's?

There's nothing wrong with choosing to value a certain lifestyle over uncertain future years. Many people die in accidents or from cancer before they hit their 70's. If I choose to value the life I have now, the way I like living it, over the years I may not get anyway, there's nothing wrong with that.

Plus, regarding medical costs and obesity: the obese cost more per year, but the "healthy" cost more over their lifetime, because obese people die sooner. PLoS Medicine: Lifetime Medical Costs of Obesity: Prevention No Cure for Increasing Health Expenditure But people will mostly talk about the costs per year, because we like to blame fat people for things.

And, of course, physical attractiveness is cultural. Many cultures value the overweight as much or more than the thin. (Just recently read this article: Force Feeding Makes Women Beautiful in Islamic Country of Mauitania - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com)

Of course, it is equally true that some people highly value being fit, but are overweight nonetheless because it is more difficult for them to reach and maintain a healthy weight. Scientists have found a lot of things that suggest that some people's bodies are just predisposed to gaining and keeping on weight. Some articles of interest:

Brown Fat: A Fat That Helps You Lose Weight? - TIME

Can Exercise Overcome Genes? - TIME

This second one talks about how (yay! ) it is possible for people with genetic predisposition to obesity to "avoid being fat." All they have to do is "burn a stunning 900 kilocalories more per day than their less active counterparts, which amount[s] to three to four hours of moderate exercise daily." And this is, nonetheless, presented as good news...

...

So, those are some reasons why people are heavier than you might personally prefer.
 
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tincup is offline tincup Post #5  October 17,2010, 10:56pm
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chimerical wrote :
Okay. Well, first of all, you need to understand that physical health and longevity are not axiomatic goods, necessarily at the top of all a person's values. If they were at the top of my values, I would likely be a vegetarian, and would definitely not eat red meat or processed food. I would do low-impact cardio and weightlifting 5 out of 7 days a week, minimum. I would refrain from drinking alcohol, save perhaps red wine. I would wear the best athletic shoes I could afford, and only athletic shoes (no heels or flipflops, ever)...

...And on and on. There are many, many things involved in the prioritizing of one's health that most people do not currently do. Do you do all of them?

If you don't do all of them, it should make sense why some people do less than you. They value other things more: socializing at restaurants, the pleasures of cooking, the pleasures of drinking, etc.

I've admitted on here before that, medically speaking (looking at BMI charts, that is), I'm considered obese. Has it interfered with my love life? Not substantially. Has it prevented me from doing martial arts, from going for a run, from enjoying a hike or bike ride? No. My motivation for losing weight is supposed to be... what? A few more years of life in my 70's or 80's?

There's nothing wrong with choosing to value a certain lifestyle over uncertain future years. Many people die in accidents or from cancer before they hit their 70's. If I choose to value the life I have now, the way I like living it, over the years I may not get anyway, there's nothing wrong with that.

Plus, regarding medical costs and obesity: the obese cost more per year, but the "healthy" cost more over their lifetime, because obese people die sooner. PLoS Medicine: Lifetime Medical Costs of Obesity: Prevention No Cure for Increasing Health Expenditure But people will mostly talk about the costs per year, because we like to blame fat people for things.

And, of course, physical attractiveness is cultural. Many cultures value the overweight as much or more than the thin. (Just recently read this article: Force Feeding Makes Women Beautiful in Islamic Country of Mauitania - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com)

Of course, it is equally true that some people highly value being fit, but are overweight nonetheless because it is more difficult for them to reach and maintain a healthy weight. Scientists have found a lot of things that suggest that some people's bodies are just predisposed to gaining and keeping on weight. Some articles of interest:

Brown Fat: A Fat That Helps You Lose Weight? - TIME

Can Exercise Overcome Genes? - TIME

This second one talks about how (yay! ) it is possible for people with genetic predisposition to obesity to "avoid being fat." All they have to do is "burn a stunning 900 kilocalories more per day than their less active counterparts, which amount[s] to three to four hours of moderate exercise daily." And this is, nonetheless, presented as good news...

...

So, those are some reasons why people are heavier than you might personally prefer.
I think we all appreciate your extreme candidness. Good backup to your facts. I always respect that in a discussion.

I used to be heavier set and I don't know if I added years onto my life by getting to a healthier weight, but I can tell you I enjoy daily activity much more now and have a lot more energy. I'm also able to do physical activities I couldn't previously. I guess for me most importantly I am just much more confident when it comes to dating. I look in the mirror and know I'm attractive - not to every woman on the planet but to enough of them not to worry. In my case weight loss was a quality of life decision, not a longevity decision.

I guess if you've totally accepted a certain lifestyle, and made a choice, as you have, I get it. I may not agree with it, but i salute you owning it and being comfortable in your own skin. Do you think most people feel the same way though? It seems like most people I meet are insecure about their weight and that's why I jumped to the conclusion in my original post that it represents a lack of respect for one's self.

Tincup
 
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chimerical is offline chimerical Post #6  October 17,2010, 11:15pm
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tincup wrote :
I look in the mirror and know I'm attractive - not to every woman on the planet but to enough of them not to worry.
Yes, I feel equally about my looks--that I'm attractive enough not to worry. I know I appeal to some and not to others, and I'm fine with that.

tincup wrote :
I guess if you've totally accepted a certain lifestyle, and made a choice, as you have, I get it. I may not agree with it, but i salute you owning it and being comfortable in your own skin. Do you think most people feel the same way though? It seems like most people I meet are insecure about their weight and that's why I jumped to the conclusion in my original post that it represents a lack of respect for one's self.
I think you are probably right about many overweight people feeling insecure about their weight, but that is because our society sends such strong "anti-fat" messages, that even people who don't really value being fit feel bad about not being fit. If you are overweight, people assume that you're lazy and sloppy/unhygienic, and (according to one study I recall) they are also more likely to judge you to be unintelligent. So, when faced with all this societal discrimination, of course heavier folks are going to feel insecure. Is it really their fault? When we're the ones sending those messages? Can you blame them for having lower self-esteem when their society is trying to dehumanize them?

My point, I guess, is that lowered self-esteem is not the cause for weight (lack of respect leading to "letting oneself go") but rather, weight gain, and the resultant messages from society, cause the lowered self-esteem. (It's true that for some, it is the reverse. But not for all. Probably, not for most.)
 
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dazedconfuzed is offline dazedconfuzed Post #7  October 17,2010, 11:20pm
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snip:
tincup wrote :
From a psychological standpoint I find it very unattractive. It makes me wonder how the person can have such lack of respect for themselves that they get this way. I understand that as we age, metabolism slows, and in general, maintaining a slender figure is far more difficult. I guess accordingly, this post is aimed at my peers in the mid-20's.

I didn't have a question in mind, rather just wanted to start a discussion. Discuss away....

Tincup

Sorry, but I find this extremely judgmental... Not everyone is the same, and while I agree there are a fair amount of people that probably DO have a lack of respect for their bodies, this is not the case with everyone.

I am no skinny minnie, but I have no problem with guys finding me attractive. I have always been curvy.

I was in a bad car accident in 2003 that messed up my knee in a serious way, and hindered my activity. I also have a thyroid issue. I work around these problems, but it's not as easy as it used to be. And I can tell you I am not lacking respect for my body. I work out 3x a week for at least 2 hours. So not all overweight people are lazy or lacking respect for the bodies at any age... You kinda walk a fine line with generalizations like that...
 
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LEO_CA is offline LEO_CA Post #8  October 17,2010, 11:30pm
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Weight in itself isn't an issue for me. Using chimerical as an example, if someone is considered overweight, but manages an active lifestyle compatible to mine, i have no problem. On the other hand, if she weighed less but wasn't physically active, I wouldn't find her a right match for me. More than weight, I find smoking or drinking to be a bigger turn off.
 
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richey is offline richey Post #9  October 18,2010, 11:12am
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There are many reasons anybody could "not fit" (i don't like focusing on weight.. weight has nothing to do with it... size/obesity/fitness is what's really at stake) and the reasons being stated by the OP is 1) irresponsible, 2) unfairly judgemental, and 3) extremely presumptious.

I've been on both side of the fence a couple times in my life and the first thing I want to say is this: people's health (including obesity) can be affected by MILLIONS of things ~ it's not just about eating, exercising, "self respect", etc. That is why it's very presumptious and irresponsible to see it as the OP sees it. Lastly, there is so much mis-information, which points to how much we absolutely DO NOT KNOW about how the body works and is affected, that it even more so makes the OP'S presumptious judgements even more irresponsible. I'll give you an example from my own life:

About 12-13 yrs ago (I was in my late 20's at the time, I am about to turn 42 shortly), there was a potential legal matter at work that was going on with my workgroup and our employer. The "dispute" probably spanned about a 1 yr timeframe before it was all "settled" (my group was seen as correct and thus the company remedied the situation and gave us what was rightfully ours.... so a GOOD outcome for us). HOwever, all of us.. to a person, had some pretty major health degradation during that year ~ including obesity. It was probably the worst year or two (health-wise) of my life.

Was it because I was not "self-respecting?" Was it because I was "lazy"? Was it because I wasn't "taking care of myself"? Perhaps that 3rd one yes, but not in the way we're talking about. I was still active, young, playing basketball 2-3 times a week, i was an avid biker ~ 50 mile rides 2-3 times a week). The only change, for all of us, was the IMMENSE STRESS and lack of sleep this dispute was causing us (mostly the stress).

From that I've concluded since then that stress, just the presence of it, can degrade health and perhaps make peopel "gain weight". So it's possible that the "overly obese" person you find unattractive may just have a lot of stress in their life? As in major stress? To me, given my experience.. that's possible.

So if stress can do it as well, can't it be true that OTHER things not related to eating, exercising, etc. be causing people to become obese? I believe so. And that's not to bring in alllllllll the millions of different chemical and medical possibilities that might contribute to it (e.g. my mom's thyroid problem we finally discovered 20-30 yrs after my dad just believed she was "lazy and fat" all that time)....

So if you don't find it attractive (obesity) and choose not to date it. Fine. Nobody is telling you what you shoudl and should not like, what you should or should not be attracted to. But for gawd's sakes, keep it to that and stop judging people over it and placing all these other "labels" and meaning to it. Because until you know about their situation and life ~ you are in no place, and have no clue, to decide what it says about them.

Richey
 
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numbertheorist is offline numbertheorist Post #10  October 18,2010, 11:14am
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Why is it awkward? Weight is your dealbreaker. Accept this about yourself and move on.

Good luck!
 
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