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Dating a virgin ~ the holy grail of dating or a burdonsome responsibility? Discuss.

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littlebluemonkeymind littlebluemonkeymind is offline

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Benevolence32 wrote :

Wow I didn't see any arrogance at all from anyone, people are seriously projecting. Thou doth protest too much.

If you think that was a protest, you don't know me very well.

Projecting? No. Objecting? Definitely.

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:28 pm

#71

littlebluemonkeymind littlebluemonkeymind is offline

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saulgoode wrote :

Eventually, sex gets old, even if it's just with one person.

My point, which I see's been completely lost, is that holding onto your virginity is fine and all -- who cares, really, it's a personal choice -- but attaching too much emotion to the act of sex is unrealistic.

You don't date someone for sex. God help you if you marry for sex.

There are 168 hours in a week, and you're lucky to spend half of one of those hours having sex. You'd better have a hell of a lot more to be attached to than your hymen and your morals.

Personally, I could care less. I dated a few women who refused to have sex until we met some mark in our relationship, and one woman who flat-out refused to have sex again until she was married (a born-again virgin).

'Swhatever.

- Saul

Nah, Saul, your post was actually rather sweet. I'm sure that statement will come back to haunt me at some point.

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:29 pm

#72

Jacquesne

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Hmm, perhaps I should summarize my longer post, haha. It was in direct response to these three claims:

"a) Your sexual prowess would absolutely unhinge a virgin...to the point where you have to take precautions not only to protect yourself from how emotionally insane she's going to get when you have sex with her, but to protest her from herself as well

b) If a woman is a virgin beyond a certain age, there *must* be something incredibly wrong with her that you don't even want to contemplate.

c) You having sex with a virgin would be a real favour to her - something you grant her the privilege of enjoying, 'even though'"

Argument A) Women have more at stake for both valuing virginity and the social constructs created by this value. Women in society are taught, usually by their mothers, that virginity is important and that they should be very careful not to give it to the wrong guy. If I were, say, a Hindu, eating beef is "bad" under my value system. Thus if a Hindu were to eat beef they would likely have a stronger reaction to the situation than a Christian eating beef. So since women value virginity more than men we are concerned that her feelings over losing it will make it a big deal, it's not that guys believe the sex is so amazing she's going to lose her mind. That's like saying a Hindu would have an emotional reaction to eating beef because Christians make amazing hamburgers.

Argument B) Being a virgin past a certain age is a social stigma for both genders and always has been outside of a vow of chastity. The longer you live the more likely you are to have sex at some point as you have more and more relationships, again, for both genders. If anyone has a worse stigma attached to being a virgin as you get older it's men, not women. Mothers don't generally encourage their daughters to go out and have sex. Fathers often do for their sons and a common fear for guys is "if I don't have sex dad is going to think I'm gay or a loser." So again I don't know how this is something that's a female specific issue.

Argument C) Guys aren't saying having sex with a virgin is a favor to her (in fact the general consensus was that it was more trouble than having sex with a non-virgin). They're saying they would want to move slowly and make sure she's having sex with him because she wants to and not because her hormones are raging. And no, this is not saying women have no control over their actions...guys are just as susceptible to getting caught up in the moment if not more so.

Conclusion: The "role in society" of the "sacredness of a woman's virginity" is not "controlling women and their sexuality." If anything it was designed to protect women during times when she didn't really have many options other than marriage by trying to insure she could be married in the first place.

Is that clearer? I swear I'll get this brevity thing down eventually but it's hard to make actual arguments minus the part where you support your claims. I could just write "those three things are wrong" but it's not very convincing.

Oh, well. It doesn't look like I'm going to make a solid case anyway. I think I've confused the jury. I blame midterms and Machiavelli for writing too much Roman history intertwined with politics. It's making my head hurt and obviously mucking up my writing. Oops.

Jacquesne

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:30 pm

#73

trixie1868 trixie1868 is offline

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Jacquesne

sum⋅ma⋅rize

/ˈsʌm

əˌraɪz/

Show Spelled Pronunciation [suhm-uh-rahyz]

Show IPA

–verb (used with object), -rized, -riz⋅ing.

1.	to make a summary of; state or express in a concise form.

2.	to constitute a summary of.

I think you talk yourself into confusion.

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:33 pm

#74

PR_Princess PR_Princess is offline

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D_Lion wrote :

Islam are not the only pious people.

Obviously....

I wasn't always a Muslim

All kidding aside...what is more important is not just virginity but the modesty that is supposed to ensure this state of being. Abstaining from idle talk, curbing the wandering eye, keeping a sensible distance..etc. It is the sense of self respect that the man/woman is supposed to have about themselves instead of treating their body/mind/spirit like a commodity. I'm obviously speaking from a convert point of view...since most cannot claim to be virgins yet "in theory" shouldn't make them any less of a person as the "untouched".

Virginity is such a moot point when you really should look at the heart of the matter. The person sitting across from you is a living, breathing human being worthy of all the respect and dignity that God intended when he created us. When you don't respect such things....it is more of a reflection of you than anything else.

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:37 pm

#75

grlnxtdr

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I think the "Holy Grail" part comes from insecure men needing to feel like they are so irresistable that this women who has presumably had many men pursuing her, finds him so attractive that she can no longer control herself and will give up all her prior held values. I think this would only work for a female percieved to be "Hot" by the man. If she is not highly attractive to the general male population then he get no points scored in the pervert male world.

Men that think like that and brag to frinds about the conquest want to control a women. They think "Wow, she gave up something sacred to her, what else will she compromise if I play her right." These type of men fantasize about being the first, because they want to remain in her mind forever as being the first.

I am not talking about a man that happens upon a virgin, I am talking about a man that seeks one out, or one that finds out a women is a virgin and all of a sudden has this immense interest in her.

Jacquesne, I am not placing you or anyone else posting on this board as one of those guys. I am talking about the perverted guy that would disgust most adjusted adults, so by control, I mean those guys...not you.

I think the fall out for a virgin to give it up to one of these pervert guys, might cause her to become a mess when she realizes it was a bragging point for the guy. I mean who wants to be disrespected whether virgin or not...with locker room talk amongst guys. So other than religious reasons this is the reason Moms tell their daughters to be careful.

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:43 pm

#76

neardc

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Jacquesne wrote :

The rest, however, I stand by. The sacredness of virginity is constructed...by women, for women, as a throwback to times when birth control was unavailable and losing your virginity meant the real risk of pregnancy and all the responsibility that entailed. Protecting virginity and valuing it has much more importance for women than men. Which is why we're saying we'd prefer non-virgins.

If this is true, then why is it that in some parts of the world it is men who demand it, and women who are killed when they no longer have it? (Actually, that even happens here...)

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:49 pm

#77

Faira

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[quote=Jacquesne;784995]My second-last paragraph came from my first real paragraph starting with "Guys have a very un-PC path..."

Thank you. That makes a bit more sense, in that context.

It was a direct response to "the sacredness of women's virginity says a lot about its role in society: controlling women and their sexuality." and "Anyone else hearing a ton of male arrogance in this thread?" If I read the first sentence in context of the second one I read this as implying "men's attitude towards a woman's virginity is designed to control women and their sexuality." Am I correct so far?

I think that there's very much an argument to be made...maybe the "sacredness" of virginity was a bad choice of words, but the desirability. I'm going to jump to your argument on birth control being responsibility for this phenomenon; the evidence that I've seen doesn't seem to support it. Virginity was desirable long before birth control, and even in traditional cultures where birth control isn't used; it's not a female construction, it's a patriarchal construction: Women have to be virgins when they married, men get a free ride (so to speak). I'm sorry if that reminds you of the language of your Women's Studies days; I admit that some of that language can be anti-men, and that's not a branch of feminism that I really believe in or endorse. If my post came across like that, I owe you an apology as well, but it doesn't change the fact that it was a group of men (not you; men a long time ago) that decided that virginity was something to be valued in a woman.

So I disagreed with this in quite some detail and disagreed that men are trying to control women and drew the conclusion, based on context, that you believe men controlling women is a bad thing (which I agree with).

I don't think it's a matter of control; I think it's a matter of the assumption that a sexually inexperienced woman needs to be protected from the potential emotional consequences of making a decision to have sex. Virgins aren't automatically going to be "swept away" into making a decision when the time might not be "right" for them; and so what if they are? She is a woman deciding to have sex. It's useful for the man to know, as she might experience some physical discomfort, but couldn't any woman?

So if we, by our responses, are arrogant and controlling, and these things are bad, therefore we are bad. If A=B and B=C then A=C, right?

You are not bad. Men are not bad. I dislike that line of feminist thinking immensely. Men have been part of a lot of social forces that have conspired to keep women from being treated as people with rights, but women have been part of those forces too. But that's another thread.

Perhaps I did put words in your mouth. I may have been having flashbacks to my Gender and Society class where your post was used almost word for word except the word "patriarchy" was used more often. I do apologize for arguing against what I perceived to be your position rather than perhaps what it actually is.

Apology accepted.

This was my summary of your response in my head that I was responding to, to clarify..."Society, and the men who control it, perpetuate the 'value' of virginity because they want to maintain control over female sexuality. So what I'm hearing in this thread from arrogant men is that they are saying that they cause women to lose control by having sex with a virgin, that older female virgins must be 'broken' somehow, and that the men are saying sex is a 'gift' to women."

Again, I don't think it's about control, I think it's about assumptions. And I think the assumptions did have a tone of arrogance to them, yes. You were not the only one that I was referring to in that post.

This read to me like men are at fault for her behavior and we think women's behavior revolves around us. This is what I was arguing against.

You, or any other man, is not at fault for anyone's behaviour. People are responsible for their own actions - that's part of my argument, really. Why assume that a virgin is not ready for sex and avoid her on that basis? Obviously not all men are doing this, but we saw evidence in this thread that some would...

Perhaps the part where I stated that you implied men were bad is false and, if saying we are controlling and arrogant is indeed not an insult, I take those statements back and apologize. Intent is often difficult to read through text and I make (a lot of) mistakes.

I make mistakes too, and apologize for any way that I misread what you were saying. I appreciate you clearing things up.

The rest, however, I stand by. The sacredness of virginity is constructed...by women, for women, as a throwback to times when birth control was unavailable and losing your virginity meant the real risk of pregnancy and all the responsibility that entailed. Protecting virginity and valuing it has much more importance for women than men. Which is why we're saying we'd prefer non-virgins.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. ;-)

Likewise virginity after a certain age is more of a stigma for men than women. Men have a lot of social pressure to be sexually active. An older woman virgin is perhaps "saving herself," a noble cause. An older man is more likely a social misfit who other women rejected. I'm not making these stereotypes up and I don't see how this stigma is against women in particular as you implied.

Ever heard, "She must be frigid"? "Knock-kneed"? Take a look at the spinster stereotype, or the female librarian stereotype. I'm not making these up either. I'm not denying that the male stereotypes are out there, and I'm sure they're hard to overcome as well...but females do feel the stigma too.

And saying that being sensitive to a woman and making sure she is comfortable with losing her virginity before getting caught up in passion and having her regret it is somehow us being arrogant and pretentious is also false, as I said before and other posters have said. This last one is what made me draw the conclusion that your position is that men are the "bad guys" here and led directly to my first and final paragraphs. It didn't come out of nowhere. After all, how else could you have come to the conclusion that men had bad intentions by being cautious? The idea that we would do it for her didn't seem to factor into it.

The assumptions are arrogant. I've been reading your posts since I got here, and you're not an arroganr person. Or a bad guy. I've seen very few people on these boards that I'd call either of those things. The idea that you'd do it for her is very nice, yes...but did she ask for it? Or are you acting on a stereotype of a female virgin?

She's just another woman who has agreed to have sex.

I don't mean to be patronizing. I do find that an interesting choice of words after my use of "patriarchy." If I misunderstood you then I really am sorry; I don't like putting words in people's mouth or misinterpreting them if I can help it. Those are the conclusions I drew based on what you wrote and the context of it being a response to what I wrote. I've tried to explain how I came to those conclusions.

Thanks. It's been interesting.

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:54 pm

#78

Benevolence32 Benevolence32 is offline

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littlebluemonkeymind wrote :

Dating a virgin, male or female, is nothing more than dating someone with a different sexual history than you have. The reason female virginity is more highly regarded is, to some extent cultural, but is also about ego - being the first to break ground, so to speak. Most women prefer a man who already knows how to drive a stick shift. There's nothing I hate worse than a lot of granny-clutching and lurching around.

Fetishizing anything rather than seeing another individual as just an individual is creepy. Period.

I'll agree with this mostly, my original point was that there are men that see it differently...so a woman that does value her virginity (face it, they're out there, religion aside) would want to be leary of these men.

You're sort of contradicting yourself in a way though...if a woman wants a guy with experience how is that any different than a guy pursuing a woman with no experience? Isn't both trains of thought in essence fetishizing and not seeing a person as an individual? I'm just picking your brain here btw.

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:56 pm

#79

Nylit

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Whew there you are Saul,, thought we had lost ya,, even put out a topic to look for you LOL!

(cough) I was looking in all the wrong places, silly me.

- November 2nd, 2009, 05:58 pm

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