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True there, but you forget that these facts can also have biologically reasoning behind it.

Yes, the value of sex can be made 'neutral' and determined by the cultural context it resides in, but it doesn't sway the biological factors behind it.

As an example, when a woman gets pregnant, her body goes through massive changes. Her skin darkens (which is why most men prefer glowing, lighter skin not in the racial sense), her nipples, genitals and lips darken (whereas they would have a more youthful coloured tint), her areola (the ring surrounding her nipple) grows larger, her breasts swell and droop slightly (which is why men prefer perky breasts as a sign of youth) - and many other physical signs which display that she has gone through a more mature stage.
A young woman will have a better glow, lighter coloured nipples, genitals and skin, redder lips, visibly flushed face (the blush), etc.
This is why women devise ways to look like she's at the peak of her youth, untouched by man and showing signs of her un-impregnated status even after she has aged or borne children, and men find such signs attractive and even find ways to encourage the exaggeration of such signals.

In many ways, our cultural values we place on these things such as virginity, less partners on women (and more stigma at more partners) and more for men (and less stigma at more partners) are based on the biological truths of our species, which we further embellish, exaggerate or tweak but the base stays the same.
- November 4th, 2009, 11:10 pm
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Well ...

Chalice does rhyme with Phallus.

Last edited by clearlyoblique; November 5th, 2009 at 07:32 pm. Reason: 'cuz Nightling said I miss-spelllled.
- November 5th, 2009, 06:41 am
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EMTZ wrote :
I think the answer to that is simple: most men will find even bad sex acceptable, but women, on the other hand...
...on the other hand if you truly love someone you'd work that out as a couple. Could that be one of the problems with casual sex possibly? Thoughts?
- November 5th, 2009, 08:08 am
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6dle899 If it were that easy, everyone would do it.

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...on the other hand if you truly love someone you'd work that out as a couple. Could that be one of the problems with casual sex possibly? Thoughts?

The only problems with casual sex as I see it are pregnancy and disease.


And MAYBE, if one party feels an unexpected emotional attachment but the other one does NOT, after the act. That could be a problem.-- it was mine, ,my first time, having eex, at around age 27....
- November 5th, 2009, 08:15 am
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Well ...

Challis does rhyme with Phallus.
*ponders*
- November 5th, 2009, 11:56 am
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AsianGal wrote :
I'm not sure if the UK/AU sizes are same to the US ones.
But I think a UK/AU size 14 is considered a US size 10.

That would make a UK/AU size 10 a size 6.
Sorry I'm not good with US conversions (i.e. ounces, pounds, etc, really hard!).
Neither are most men in the U.S.
- November 5th, 2009, 12:23 pm
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Well ...

Challis does rhyme with Phallus.
Yep that one's a five star.

Last edited by nightling; November 5th, 2009 at 01:22 pm. Reason: although the editor in me is forcing me to post that it's chalice ...
- November 5th, 2009, 01:21 pm
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6dle899 wrote :
The only problems with casual sex as I see it are pregnancy and disease.


And MAYBE, if one party feels an unexpected emotional attachment but the other one does NOT, after the act. That could be a problem.-- it was mine, ,my first time, having eex, at around age 27....
I'm so glad that i'm not the only one who gets emotionally attached. One very good reason I don't engage in casual sex.
- November 5th, 2009, 06:15 pm
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Jacquesne wrote :
Likewise virginity doesn't have any value beyond what we decide it does. We may have good (or bad) reasons for valuing virginity; it indicates purity and makes sex a unique activity with your lifelong partner, it's more challenging to sleep with someone who's held out up until now, so on and so forth.

Beware treating values as facts. It's an easy mistake to make
See, Jacquesne? We *do* agree.
- November 5th, 2009, 06:38 pm
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AsianGal wrote :
Reading all these posts I can't help but feel most of the people posting here have a somewhat casual attitude towards sex.

Either they see sex as just 'sex' by placing sole value on it, thus basing their values of relationships on sex which is the largest mitigating factor, or they just can't be half arsed to view sex as anything but just a ritual of pleasuring one's self along with another partner - empty and meaningless.

I'm a 23 years old woman and yes I'm a virgin. I've been engaged to my fiance since we were in high school but didn't want to go shotgun marriage because there's nothing worse than teenage idiots getting hitched for the sake of it.
Coincidentally we have quite a number more factors we have to consider than the average person in a relationship as we hail from different countries (we met while studying overseas), come from different cultural backgrounds and races, and worse, religions.

So you can see most people wouldn't have really bothered because it takes 'work'.
However, for my fiance, the moment he set eyes on me he said he knew he wanted me to be with him for the rest of his life.
He told me after we had known each other for about 3 months as friends that he didn't want to date me because it would be disrespectful to me (for some in our cultures, though this is probably 90% gone now due to westernisation/modernisation of our generations, dating is a very loose, casual way for people to experiment and he felt I was worth more than just an 'experiment'), he asked me to marry him.
I was stunned, because we were just teens. I mean I wanted to get through university (we both entered university at 17 because of our grades) and then get a career AND a life of independence before thinking of getting a husband!
I told him to give me time to think about it. Even though at that point we had become very close friends, the thought crossed my mind that he might be a slimy dirtbag who wanted to get into my pants by telling me he wanted to marry me and then pressurise me into sleeping with him using the 'we're going to get married anyway' card.
Story cut short, during the time I considered we remained friends and I finally said 'yes'.
We decided to get engaged and agreed that marrying at a young age might only serve to jepordise our futures - kids need a stable environment and if you're going to marry early have 'have a kid' by accident you can forget about your education and career.
Another long story cut short, my family was outraged as we come from an upper-class family and there are certain unspoken 'rules' you follow (which I completely disagree with. Its just that my family is very. Um. Conservative and last generation while my siblings and I were raised very modern) - that is, no dark people, no other religions except mine and the common Asian religion our race has, no poor people, no lower-class people, basically no choice except that which is approved by the family.
He faced the same thing. He comes from an upper-middle class family back in his home country and they weren't too happy I wasn't of his religion (they are very strict) and that I wasn't even the same race.
We fought for many years. I left my family and he did his - we still keep in close touch with them - as that was the only way to be together.
We left our wealth to fight in the real way and pay our way through everything - rent, bills, education, etc.
You might not blink an eye at this as it is normal in western countries to kick your kids out when they are teens or 20's to be independent but it is normal in Asian cultures to have your kids under your roof until they are married. So for us going independent was very scary, hard but we were so happy.
We moved and lived in 2 Asian countries (one being mine) and then moved to where we met overseas (Western country) to live.

This entire time we have vowed to keep ourselves for one another and aside from the peck/smooch on the cheek and lips we have no done anything sexual with one another.
He doesn't ever pressurise me nor I do him and he told me he is virgin too.
We're due to be married next year.

Of course, we're excited that we get to enjoy one another during our honeymoon.
My friends have told me that perhaps he's lying about being a virgin and he's happy to have a 'pure and wholesome good girl' type but he wouldn't have waited and fought together with me on both our families and cultures (in my country we were stared at and even harassed for me being with him, while those of the same races can make out by escalators no problem. So hypocritical!).
Plus not to mention my sister had jokingly told me that I would know if he's a virgin because all virgins have no idea what to do in the bedroom during their first time.

I find that really beautiful that we will be exploring one another for the first time in love and marriage.

We fought really hard and to me it really is worth waiting for the right person. Not only is he/she worth fighting for (look at how much we have gone through to get to where we are, on our own, through opposing families, cultures, racial and even religious barriers!) you appreciate the person so much more.
There is a kind of unfathomable trust we both have in one another which I find many couples do not have because they see their relationship in such a sterile, non-compromising (aka two separate individuals not two souls in one body) manner which is why there can be no compromise.

I believe men and women should ask themselves what is more worth it.
A woman/man who has strong principles and values who will stick by you through thick and thin or a woman who 'ticks all the boxes' in your superficial list of must-haves (i.e. must have a straight 90 degree angled nose, no more than size 14, good rack, puts out, doesn't play hard to get) - any woman can have these and pretend play the rest if she only wants your money or any man can do the same if he only wants your body.

As for sex, well, I believe two people of similar sexual experiences should be together, because its unrealistic to expect everyone to remain virgins before a relationship.
Also, I believe sex shouldn't be the primary value of a relationship, but comes along naturally as part of it.
This is why so many marriages fizzle out because people select their mates based on superficial lists and requirements such as beauty and looks - but after marriage these things fade, because many have never really considered the person's true character/personality's suitability to theirs they end up with almost a stranger. Sex might then drop to a slow period (no one can have mind-blowing sex consistently there will always be slow periods during pregnancies, etc etc) and the man will really have nothing in common with this person because when all else failed only the sex held them together anyway since he had selected her so superficially. Now that sex is gone he sees no or little value in the relationship and only complains about how 'bad' or 'non-existent' the sex is and looks elsewhere.
Thank you so much for sharing your beautiful story. It makes a lot of sense to a faithful Catholic in Eastern Europe.
May God bless you and your fiance.
- November 9th, 2009, 01:07 pm
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