chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #171  October 21,2009, 8:48pm
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DreamingOfAtlantis wrote :
It seems to me, in this case, it comes down to whether you can please that person while, at the same time, being and pleasing yourself.

If we spend all our time deciding what to do or say because we want to please someone else, then we are basing our behaviors and speech on them and not on who we are.
Exactly. Pleasing other people, especially the ones you care the most about, is a great thing. It's only a problem if you find doing so makes it difficult to remain true to yourself.
 
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LizziePooh is offline LizziePooh Post #172  October 21,2009, 8:55pm

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Ahhh, another JayJay thread...love them (well, except for that one that I really could not figure out the question. lol!)

And for my answer to your question of external or internal - definitely internal - without a doubt in my mind.

You all know I am a huge proponent that there are differences between the genders. It is actually funny if you guys knew me in real life, I have always been anything but a girl...except I have always truly been a girl. (see...total girl comment!)

"I can do anything you can do better" lol! From Annie Oakley - that line has stuck in my head since I saw a junior high musical when I was about ten. lol! Been on my own since my late teens, was a total tom-boy growing up, not afraid of speaking my mind and I have a mouth on me (lol! I am sure you guys know that!!), deals pretty much the majority of the time without emotion in the workplace, except on rare occasions but sometimes you can be mad about how things are being handled so I think it is a constructive emotion.

None of that really leads one to think of typical gender role stereotypes. But I have always been a girl - heart, soul and body.

I see a lot of misunderstanding here about gender roles, especially about equality and power. The stuff [external stuff] does not matter how it shakes out - who makes more, when, how - who cooks/cleans more, how often.

Gender roles, at least for couples, it is about just accepting the person you are with as they are. If you both are doing that then it shows you really love and understand each other, which is key - understanding is key. So the stuff, just works out. You do what makes sense for you and them...you know - the we.

If you both are committed to "the we", you don't need to fear about inequality and the other stuff.

"The we" has agreed upon priorities and values and so you just both do what needs to be done to respect those priorities and values.
 
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nightling is offline nightling Post #173  October 21,2009, 8:58pm
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DreamingOfAtlantis wrote :
It seems to me, in this case, it comes down to whether you can please that person while, at the same time, being and pleasing yourself.

If we spend all our time deciding what to do or say because we want to please someone else, then we are basing our behaviors and speech on them and not on who we are.
Well as I stated up front, I'm not talking about going to extremes of changing who you are or your personality. But within my personality set there is a range of options I would find acceptable.

Anything outside the range is obviously a dealbreaker.
 
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LizziePooh is offline LizziePooh Post #174  October 21,2009, 9:01pm

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nightling wrote :
To me I'm not talking about changing personalities or anything here. I'm just saying if I like someone, I want to please them. Why else would I go out with them? But all these widely varying opinions ...

Am I wrong? Shouldn't we be trying to do things based on how it will make the other person feel if they are someone we like and we want them to have a nice time on the date or in the relationship in general?

suddenly the world seems a very complicated place to me. lol
I am following you, nightling. I know what you are saying and I am over here nodding my head at your posts.
 
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Benevolence32 is offline Benevolence32 Post #175  October 21,2009, 10:17pm
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scarlet13 wrote :
so which is it?

does a guy want to be the protector/provider and also be expected to pay for dinner and initiate communication, or does he expect an equal partnership and risk emasculation?

seriously, I'd like to know. please.
I think most men these days just want a shade of grey. For me I enjoy spending money on a woman and looking out for her but at the same time I don't want to feel the weight of the world on my shoulders. My ex-gf and most of the women in her family used to boast about how they didn't need men in their lives to the point where it was almost in your face and a turn-off. But the day after at that she never had any problem accepting money I gave her to help with her bills.

librarybabe wrote :
From what I read above, it sounds like you think a librarian is not ambitious, but being a library director is? Why? Simply because the library director has reached the apex of their particular ladder? Would not this mean that anyone who did not desire to be the CEO of their company was a slacker, as well? I would also point out that the amount of responsibility that the librarians in my university library carry far excels the responsibility of the director of the small public library where I started my career. Was she somehow more ambitious than they?

In my experience, library directors of larger libraries must give up their passion for librarianship. They become administrators. I have no aspirations of becoming an administrator, so I suppose I am a slacker. I admit, creating budgets and long range plans, attending meetings, managing the petty grievances of personnel and delegating library work to others are not the kind of responsibilities that drew me to librarianship.

I don't know what your definition of personal achievement is, but I consider each day that my abilities are challenged to help someone a personal achievement. I find exciting and challenging each time I find the answer to a question it never occurred to me to ask & on a topic of which I know little. Every time I find the right book that makes a kid excited to read or inspires in them the desire to learn. I feel like I have acoomplished something whenever I teach someone who is a computer illiterate how to use a computer and use it write papers, job resumes and do research on the internet using reputable and reliable sources. I love to learn and I find great personal satisfaction in promoting that same love in others and assisting them in discovering more about the world that interests them. This may not result in much in the way of financial reward, but for me, it is very rewarding.

If that measure of personal achievement is insufficient for you, than I can just say that it is good that you did not become a librarian.
Very well said. I was going to write a long post and get in on the ambition debate but I'm way behind on the thread and you summed it up nicely anyway.
 
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olneyjeeps is online now olneyjeeps Post #176  October 21,2009, 10:58pm
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bigfincat wrote :
I think that when you mingle your life with that of another you have to be able to adjust all roles to a slight degree from your preference.

I think the middle road has to be reached thru compromise.

I think that 2 people should be able to work together to solve most any problem or challenge.
Kind of hits the nail on the head. I think the word you were looking for is "complement"- to complete. Everyone is different. Everyone has different specialties

I love to cook. Hiring and working with new world class chefs every year, I have become pretty good. The key is I love it. Laura is an incredible cook, but just loves for me to cook for her. The way she handles horses, she could very likely kick my arse in a brawl, but she still squeals like a school girl at the sight of some amazinly little things. It's funny, am having real problems dealing with weight: is deal breaker for me to weigh less than her because she "still wants to feel "girly." I have always been very lean, but have dropped considerably due to medication related to back problems. Although I had no problem (ok,, a little ) handing her the rod to reel in over 500lbs of halibut (20-50lbs at a time), I do appreciate little things she says/does to affirm my masculinity.

Ok that was a bit of a ramble. I guess a key attribute is also that neither party should NEED to be masculine or feminine. It should be a matter of doing what you love and when that naturally encourages the other to feel great about themselves it is a good thing.

DreamingOfAtlantis wrote :
I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to be PC. If a woman is THAT easily offended, then I don't really care if me just being me offends her on a date. I'd rather know we're not going to work out early, before I invest a lot of time with her.
I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to be anything other than myself.
 
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jayjay is offline jayjay Post #177  October 22,2009, 7:58am
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...things seem to have gotten quiet around here.

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LizziePooh wrote :
You all know I am a huge proponent that there are differences between the genders. It is actually funny if you guys knew me in real life, I have always been anything but a girl...except I have always truly been a girl. (see...total girl comment!)
From what you've written in the past I've gathered your positive view of 'gender differences'....but hadn't picked up about your being a Tomboy.

LizziePooh wrote :
I see a lot of misunderstanding here about gender roles, especially about equality and power. The stuff [external stuff] does not matter how it shakes out - who makes more, when, how - who cooks/cleans more, how often.
It's the same for me...the external things aren't really that relevant, or are only a reflection of the internal and how things are expressed.

LizziePooh wrote :
Gender roles, at least for couples, it is about just accepting the person you are with as they are. If you both are doing that then it shows you really love and understand each other, which is key - understanding is key. So the stuff, just works out. You do what makes sense for you and them...you know - the we.
But that doesn't mean that people attitudes about things like gender roles are irrelevant does it? We certainly need to be able to accept the person we are with as they...but isn't this part of why we need to carefully choose who we're with? To make sure we're with someone we share compatible values with, such as regarding gender roles.
 
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jayjay is offline jayjay Post #178  October 22,2009, 8:03am
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...things seem to have gotten quiet around here.

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olneyjeeps wrote :
Kind of hits the nail on the head. I think the word you were looking for is "complement"- to complete. Everyone is different. Everyone has different specialties

I love to cook. Hiring and working with new world class chefs every year, I have become pretty good. The key is I love it. Laura is an incredible cook, but just loves for me to cook for her. The way she handles horses, she could very likely kick my arse in a brawl, but she still squeals like a school girl at the sight of some amazinly little things.
I'm with you....I don't think the external things like who cooks...or rides horses limit masculinity or femininity. For me it's how people feel and express things that creates this. I'm not a good cook...but am slowly learning.
 
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shoopthedoop is offline shoopthedoop Post #179  October 22,2009, 8:21am
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jayjay wrote :
But that doesn't mean that people attitudes about things like gender roles are irrelevant does it? We certainly need to be able to accept the person we are with as they...but isn't this part of why we need to carefully choose who we're with? To make sure we're with someone we share compatible values with, such as regarding gender roles.
Isn't gender roles more of a big picture, macro view of things?

In any given relationship there are certain roles the people will play that might fit the larger gender roles and certain roles that won't.

If you discuss it with your partner and you both agree that the man should be take care of house/yard maintenance and repairs, for example, does it really matter that it coincides with the societal standard of gender roles? Would it change things if the woman in the relationship was more likely to play that role, just because it isn't the societal norm?

As long as both people are happy with the relationship, I have no issue with non-traditional roles.
 
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Benevolence32 is offline Benevolence32 Post #180  October 22,2009, 8:34am
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shoopthedoop wrote :
If you discuss it with your partner and you both agree that the man should be take care of house/yard maintenance and repairs, for example, does it really matter that it coincides with the societal standard of gender roles? Would it change things if the woman in the relationship was more likely to play that role, just because it isn't the societal norm?
I don't see why it would matter. When I'm asked that question on EH I just choose the answer that says I'd like my partner and I to define the roles on our own. Usually I make up my own answer but that's one of the few questions where I don't. All the successful couples I know currently simply split the chores in some way I don't see them arguing over specific tasks.
 
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