jayjay is offline jayjay Post #1  August 16,2009, 9:44am
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...things seem to have gotten quiet around here.

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I was talking last night with a couple friends. One of them is currently having some marital problems that, from the sound of it, will likely end in divorce. We were talking about how both in his marriage and in my own previous marriage we had the idea that what would make for a good marriage was to do all that we could to make our wives happy. I think we both bought into the typical romantic image of a relationship in which you feel and act in a way that says "I'd do anything for you".

I told him I've pretty much come to the conclusion that this is a naive conception that won't work long term in a relationship. It seems that rather than being willing to 'do anything for you', what is needed is to have strong, firm boundaries of what you will and won't do. This friend told me that he had wanted to believe that his wife, his life partner, would never take advantage of him...when in fact from what he described she is very much doing so (not that he's a saint either). I think this is a hard idea to let go.

I told him I don't think a woman who slowly comes to take advantage of a man who will 'do anything' for her is necessarily bad...but that it's just human nature to push and find the boundaries of what you can and can't get away with. So, while people may like the idea of a relationship in which their partner will do anything for them, and will enjoy it in the short term...I think if you don't have definite boundaries in a relationship that in the long run your partner will lose respect for you and eventually end up dissatisfied in the relationship.

In a way it feels kind of pessimistic, but I actually think you have to keep at least a little bit of your 'guard' up. It would be nice to think that you could be completely vulnerable and that your partner will never take advantage of that...but I think that is largely an illusion. I've come to think that in a relationship you always have to make it clear that you will not allow yourself to be taken advantage of.

While it's a popular romantic idea of being so in love that you can't live without each other...I think if you ever come to that point in a relationship you'll eventually be taken advantag of and the relationship will be doomed either to end or at least to unhappiness.

So, do you think a relationship in which you're willing to do anything for your partner is a reality that can work...or just the stuff of movies?
 
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Mokkesofie is offline Mokkesofie Post #2  August 16,2009, 9:59am
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jayjay wrote :
So, do you think a relationship in which you're willing to do anything for your partner is a reality that can work...or just the stuff of movies?
Despite a failed marriage and having just been "dumped" after a 2 year relationship, I still do believe that you have to be willing to do anything for your partner but also that it should be mutual. I believe it works.
 
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cp30 is offline cp30 Post #3  August 16,2009, 10:12am

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I've been that person that "would do anything" and ended up doing things that I never thought I would do, for someone else. Once that boundary was crossed, I knew there was a major problem and that the person did not have the same basic value system as me and perecieved what I thought were my strenghts....to be weaknesses....which is also a different value system. Many of us are taught that sacrifice = strength. Some people are taught or learn to take advantage of people who are givers or who see sacrifice for others as a weakness of character.

Some people are just sociopaths and will look for ways to take advantage of people, especially people who think of charity and giving as strenghts.

Exploitation. I dont think it is human nature -- nececssarily. I think there are people who are like this, and people who are not.

If you have had experiences with people like this it can be every hard to again 'do anything' for someone for fear of being taken advantage of.

But I don't think all people are this way. And that is part of why similiar faith/religion is important to me. Christians tend to emphasize sacrfice as strength rather than a weakness to be exploited. it is important to me that I'm with someone who identifies strengths the same way as I do! Otherwise we are playing a game on field that looks entirley different to both of us. (and I've had that happen...)

Regardless of all of the above. Boundaries are important. Not to train others how to treat you, neccessarily, but in order to be true to yourself so that you know you will not cross a critical line for someone else that goes against the grain of who you ARE. You can't expect others to define for you what is important to you....and that is why boundaries are so important...

Unforunatley lots of people do get taken advantage of, and I believe expect that is how the world works, and change accordingly.

If you are creating boundaries as a game and to teach others....I think it misses the point, and it's not protecting you the way it would if they were boundaries that come from knowing what is and is not against your personal moral code of conduct.

If you do things out of love for someone that is one thing. If that person starts manipulating what they perceive to be your kindness and weakness, and you start a killing spree at their request....that would be a good example of what is (probably, based on what I know of you and most people) being taken advantage of by someone who is exploiting your weaknesses.

Maybe most people look to see what their boundaries are with others to 'see how far they can get' I know I don't. But then I was raised to see kindness as a strength and not a weakness.

However, most people will have a hard time respecting someone who does not have their own moral code. Someone who will not stand up and do the 'right thing' because they might suffer some loss (either popularity or thier SO). That is where people will lose respect for you....if you have no boundaries of your own because you are actually afraid of losing something.

Basically it comes down to being authentic. And you can't feign authenticity...for long.
 
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neardc is offline neardc Post #4  August 16,2009, 10:15am
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Jayjay -- Can you give some examples of what you mean by "do anything" and "take advantage of"?

Obviously there have to be some limits ("No; I won't knock that guy off for you."), so I imagine that there are always qualifiers even when somebody says/believes that they will "do anything" for the other...
 
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MisLena is offline MisLena Post #5  August 16,2009, 10:17am
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way out there.....

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thats what I'll be looking for when the paper works done.
I miss having that closeness with another person. That "Its you and me babe,no matter what".
I know it works, I have also felt it when it goes bad. And it hurts when your mate turns on you. After all, they know how to hurt you. you taught them.
 
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cp30 is offline cp30 Post #6  August 16,2009, 10:26am

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neardc wrote :
Jayjay -- Can you give some examples of what you mean by "do anything" and "take advantage of"?

Obviously there have to be some limits ("No; I won't knock that guy off for you."), so I imagine that there are always qualifiers even when somebody says/believes that they will "do anything" for the other...


I wish that statement actually seemed outlandish to me

And yes, I am thinking of scary people I've known, though not quite (yet) on levels like the Manson Family. But that stuff happens (and given the year, is in the news a lot right now).....and I think if you have experienced manipulators and sociopaths in your life like that (not saying I have...but I can see how it could escalate to such levels) I imagine you might start to see the world in a different colored light, where 'doing anything for love' or the idea of it could take on a whole different meaning and scariness in the future.

The thing is most normal people (as you pointed out) don't fathom the lenghts others might go to take advantage of others...because it just doesn't even exist in their personality to do so. And to expect everyone to be that way, is I think flawed.
 
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jayjay is offline jayjay Post #7  August 16,2009, 10:32am
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...things seem to have gotten quiet around here.

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neardc wrote :
Jayjay -- Can you give some examples of what you mean by "do anything" and "take advantage of"?

Obviously there have to be some limits ("No; I won't knock that guy off for you."), so I imagine that there are always qualifiers even when somebody says/believes that they will "do anything" for the other...
Generally, I mean just in the everyday things of life. For example, both this friend and I came to do most of the housework (dishes, laundry etc.) in our marriages. I would run my ex to work and pick her up most of the time. My friend talked about his wife constantly asking him to do simple things such as bring her a glass of water, set up the fan, alarm clock etc. and other particular things she wanted done before going to bed. Or things like if there is some type of disagreement or conflict....she will be unpleasant until he emotionally acquiesces, regardless of what happened.

I'm not talking about someone getting you to do big, immoral acts. It's the small things like these and the subtle ways in which one person can come to feel if there is no emotional boundary that the other person will not refuse to allow.

cp: Part of why I say I think this may simply be part of human nature is because this pushing to find limits and boundaries is something that seems almost universal in kids. They want to know how far they can go, what can they get away with and just how far can they push.

While adults are hopefully better about this sort of thing...it wouldn't surprise me if even adults still want to know where boundaries exist in a relationship, and that it can be easy to ask too much of a partner if they aren't willing to hold the line.
 
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LizziePooh is offline LizziePooh Post #8  August 16,2009, 10:33am

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I think we all could have this tendency to walk over someone that lets us.

My ex did that with his ex-wife. He admits that he dictated everything just because he could (at least until she left him. lol!). And he is not that type of person at all. I had a real hard time picturing him like that.

My oldest sister has been living with me for the past few years. I told her move in, pay off your debt and move out. Well, three years now and I don't think she is any closer though she lives expense free. She has always been the people-pleaser type. I did not think I would take advantage but it creeps in and you don't realize you are doing it. I can't remember the last time I went grocery shopping or made my lunch! lol! And a lot of it has to do with the fact they let you. I don't think I am the type but it happens.

I don't know what the answer is. But I think it lies somewhere in the fact that we have to respect each other. If you do not respect someone, than I think we can take advantage of someone. We do things because we want to do things for each other not because we want something from the other.

I dunno - but interesting post, JayJay - like always!
 
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jayjay is offline jayjay Post #9  August 16,2009, 10:38am
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...things seem to have gotten quiet around here.

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LizziePooh wrote :
I think we all could have this tendency to walk over someone that lets us.

My ex did that with his ex-wife. He admits that he dictated everything just because he could (at least until she left him. lol!). And he is not that type of person at all. I had a real hard time picturing him like that.

My oldest sister has been living with me for the past few years. I told her move in, pay off your debt and move out. Well, three years now and I don't think she is any closer though she lives expense free. She has always been the people-pleaser type. I did not think I would take advantage but it creeps in and you don't realize you are doing it. I can't remember the last time I went grocery shopping or made my lunch! lol! And a lot of it has to do with the fact they let you. I don't think I am the type but it happens.

I don't know what the answer is. But I think it lies somewhere in the fact that we have to respect each other. If you do not respect someone, than I think we can take advantage of someone. We do things because we want to do things for each other not because we want something from the other.

I dunno - but interesting post, JayJay - like always!
That's what I mean Lizzie. And I don't think your coming to expect your sister to do the shopping, making lunch etc. makes you a bad person. It's just that it's very, very easy to slide into more and more of these kinds of things when the other person isn't willing to draw a line. And you mentioned respect....I think what happens in the long run is that when you don't draw these boundaries, especially in a romantic relationship, that the other person comes to not respect you, even though they probably don't feel this is the case.
 
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Gr8Guyn2008 is online now Gr8Guyn2008 Post #10  August 16,2009, 10:39am
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Interesting.
 
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