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D_Lion D_Lion is offline
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tbesq wrote :
As I've said before, many men pay because that's what they're taught, not because they think you're that special. Men are not afraid to give; many have just been in situation where they received nothing in return.

Reciprocation just doesn't occur often enough for many men to believe they will get a "return" on their investment. Women see a man's willingness to pay figuratively as showing interest. Likewise, a woman's willingness to treat the man every once in a while figuratively shows mutual interest. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

And all of this is ignoring the elephant in the room: that there is nothing men can do to achieve a labor market outcome to restore them to their fathers’ inflation-adjusted standard of living, or adjust for their losses due to gender hiring quotas.

Even if a man himself wishes a “traditional” lifestyle, with the non-working spouse tending his children, he will suffer a lower standard of living to achieve it; about this, he can do nothing.

And, the lifestyle change of long-term dating, often over a decade or more, that has become “normal” (at least for educated young people in the northeast.)

“Every once in awhile” is tokenism; it remains unreasonable to expect that.
- July 31st, 2009, 04:02 pm
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HappyandLight wrote :
This is an interesting topic. I've had bf's without much money and one who refuse to "play the game" of dating and paying. He still loved me but he wasn't into wining a dining a woman at all.

I now have a man who feels it's "natural" to pay. He makes much more and he just wants to do it. The few times I've offered he says "no, it's a date".

I understand that everyone is different and men go thru hard times and often have less money than women. However, if the man is the masculine energy and wants the woman to trust him and open up both sexually and emotionally, paying is the right thing to do. It's not about getting something for free (although there are gold diggers out there) it's about feeling cherished.
If a man refuses to pay and everything is even steven, I am definitely turned off because it doesn't feel like he cherishes me. He won't take the masculine role.

By the way, I do give back to my bf in many ways. I sometimes do his dishes, make him dinner and buy tickets to things I really like to do (like plays). It's only fair you give something back, at least energetically so that even if it's not equal financially, it's more equal in other ways.

There were great things about the tight guy I went out with but I am SO GLAD I am with a man who is NOT TIGHT.. I so appreciate that about him. I feel lucky

Sorry I don't buy that, opening up one's wallet doesn't mean you cherish someone, in addition there are many ways to show you care about someone without having to pay for everything. Also if you argue that paying for things is a sign of cherishing someone, then why aren't you opening up the wallet for things he wants to do? Why aren't you out there buying him season tickets to his favorite team if spending is the best way to show you cherish someone? Only making dinner, sounds like you're the tightfisted/cheap one in the relationship.
- July 31st, 2009, 06:11 pm
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chawks64 chawks64 is offline
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D_Lion wrote :
And all of this is ignoring the elephant in the room: that there is nothing men can do to achieve a labor market outcome to restore them to their fathers’ inflation-adjusted standard of living, or adjust for their losses due to gender hiring quotas.

Even if a man himself wishes a “traditional” lifestyle, with the non-working spouse tending his children, he will suffer a lower standard of living to achieve it; about this, he can do nothing.
But what if "their fathers' inflation-adjusted standard of living" was unfair to women and minorities, and made life nearly impossible for them because they were so underpaid, if employable at all? Is it fair to continue unfair pay just because that's the way it used to be in the good ole days?

I will admit that I have always hated hiring quotas and affirmative action. Judge me for what I can and cannot do, nothing else. Don't make things easier, but don't make them harder, either. And I'm not a young thing, but it took me until I was 43 years old to see some of the "I'm not hiring you even though you're qualified because I don't like to work with women" prejudice that has been thrown in my face. In the real world, that means I have less money to spend on raising my son, even though I'm working just as hard and just as smart to get ahead. It's like a penalty for not having a Y chromosome, and it's wrong.

I'm not making this up as an easy excuse, either. It's not a matter of being less qualified and blaming it on imagined prejudice. To my face, I have been told by middle management "We don't like to hire women over 40 because you just can't teach them anything." He thought I was 35; I was 43. Another department told me they don't want to work with women "because you just can't count on them in a crisis." Really??

There are other things I have seen that didn't use to bother me, but in hindsight, they're wrong, too. I talk to men constantly, and I've never met one that has ever been asked "What will you do if your child gets sick?" in an interview. I've been asked that in the majority of mine. I've also been asked my age and if I planned on getting pregnant any time soon. And those questions show their reluctance to hire a woman. If they hire the guy that comes after me, they assume his wife will stay home with their child and he'll have to work extra hard if she gets pregnant. As an employer, which would you choose? But it still means that I don't get the job, even though the man they pick might actually be the designated caretaker for his child, but they never thought to ask.

I hate quotas, and I hate the idea of being hired just because I'm a woman. But I have to say, I also hate not being able to pay my bills just because there is still prejudice.
- July 31st, 2009, 09:21 pm
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odyssey1234 odyssey1234 is offline
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Here's my take on this:
We're in the 21st century here, people. The days of the man bringing home the bread and the woman staying at home and in the kitchen are over.

First date - As the guy, I EXPECT to pay. If things don't go well, and I have no desire to see this person again (on a date or otherwise), I will OFFER to go dutch, but will ACCEPT paying or allowing her to pay. If things go well, I will pay, no questions asked, but if she wants to pay/split, I'll SUGGEST that she pick it up "next time".

Second date - If no offer to pay was made during the first date, I will be PREPARED to pay, but HOPING that she will take the initiative to do so. If she doesn't, it's not a dealbreaker yet, but I'll start questioning her motives (am I being taken advantage of?), and whether I want to be with this girl.

Third date - If she hasn't paid for either of the first two, I EXPECT her to pay. I will leave the check on the table, and maybe prod a bit by asking if she wants to get it "this time". If she outright refuses, then this would most likely be our last date. Otherwise, I'll EXPECT from then on that we alternate paying.

This presupposes we're more or less on equal financial footing. If that's not the case, I'd expect the person who is more financially secure to pay more often than not, or cover more expensive outings.

I think I'm pretty reasonable here.. although to be honest, I've never been in a situation where this has been an issue.
- August 1st, 2009, 08:38 am
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fool4love628 fool4love628 is offline
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odyssey1234 wrote :
Here's my take on this:
We're in the 21st century here, people. The days of the man bringing home the bread and the woman staying at home and in the kitchen are over.

First date - As the guy, I EXPECT to pay. If things don't go well, and I have no desire to see this person again (on a date or otherwise), I will OFFER to go dutch, but will ACCEPT paying or allowing her to pay. If things go well, I will pay, no questions asked, but if she wants to pay/split, I'll SUGGEST that she pick it up "next time".

Second date - If no offer to pay was made during the first date, I will be PREPARED to pay, but HOPING that she will take the initiative to do so. If she doesn't, it's not a dealbreaker yet, but I'll start questioning her motives (am I being taken advantage of?), and whether I want to be with this girl.

Third date - If she hasn't paid for either of the first two, I EXPECT her to pay. I will leave the check on the table, and maybe prod a bit by asking if she wants to get it "this time". If she outright refuses, then this would most likely be our last date. Otherwise, I'll EXPECT from then on that we alternate paying.

This presupposes we're more or less on equal financial footing. If that's not the case, I'd expect the person who is more financially secure to pay more often than not, or cover more expensive outings.

I think I'm pretty reasonable here.. although to be honest, I've never been in a situation where this has been an issue.
I feel similarly. Some women out there make more than a lot of men... expecting a man to always pay out of "tradition" is just outdated in this day and age.

That being said, I always pay on the first date, and it's enough for me if the woman even OFFERS to pay on one of the first two or three dates. Now, I won't let her pay, but the offer to pay says that she's not just trying to get free food and drinks. And there are women who do this, that's a fact.

I think a woman should at least be prepared, after the first couple of dates anyway, to contribute in some way to the evening, even if it's picking up movie tickets after the guy has spent money on dinner... it's not much, but it sends the message that there's give and take. And that's what relationships are about, give and take... it's establishing that you're willing to be a giving person (on all levels) in the relationship.
- August 4th, 2009, 11:33 pm
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HappyandLight wrote :
I want to add something to this discussion. I think masculine men who have the $$$ (no put downs for less masculine men!) really do have an inner desire to pay and give. BUT, with a couple of caveats: they know the woman likes them for them and not for the gifts they give them and if the woman gives back in other ways (love, affection, attention, admiration, great sex, cooking, etc).
It's too bad men are so afraid of giving in this day and age and much of the blame falls on women who have taken advantage of them. It's a pity.
Are you saying that men don't also contribute: love, affection, attention, admiration, great sex, cooking, etc in a relationship? I give them all those things you listed. That is how a real relationship works. The idea that men should contribute money to pay for things and that women should contribute the highlighted items is preposterous. Why not have men and women, together, contribute in all areas?
- August 5th, 2009, 08:50 am
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fool4love628 wrote :
I think a woman should at least be prepared, after the first couple of dates anyway, to contribute in some way to the evening, even if it's picking up movie tickets after the guy has spent money on dinner... it's not much, but it sends the message that there's give and take. And that's what relationships are about, give and take... it's establishing that you're willing to be a giving person (on all levels) in the relationship.
Yes, I expect to most likely be paying for things on early dates...but if a woman doesn't start voluntarily contributing before too long I'm going to start feeling like she's mooching off me and wants an unbalanced type of relationship.
- August 5th, 2009, 08:57 am
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HappyandLight wrote :
I understand that everyone is different and men go thru hard times and often have less money than women. However, if the man is the masculine energy and wants the woman to trust him and open up both sexually and emotionally, paying is the right thing to do.
I'm sure i must have read that wrong but it looks to me like you just said sex is something a man won't get unless it is paid for, that a woman won't trust him if she isn't bought with the meal like a dessert.

I think i'll go off and think about that one, my first reaction is not polite.
- August 5th, 2009, 10:34 am
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gothustartus gothustartus is offline
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D_Lion wrote :
It's always the smile. Uniformly, this is what women write they like in a man's photo.
I know, 99% of the time the absolute first words i ever hear from a woman is that i have a wonderful smile. Personally i think mine looks awful.
- August 5th, 2009, 10:39 am
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Chiara wrote :
I've read every post. No matter what anyone else thinks, the man should pay for everything. NOT because the woman is cheap or a gold-digger. The man is and will always be the head of the family and as that should provide for the woman, and family in future times. A woman should allow this and with deep gratitude. It is the way God intended. Opening doors, pulling out chairs, in every way being considerate is exactly how a man should be. You will see that a REAL woman will respond generously, maybe not in paying for dinner, etc. but she will steal your heart and mind. A REAL man knows all these things and is quite confident in his time of dating. I dismiss men who cannot be REAL men of valor. I expect men to do the same with women who are not ladies. What has happened to normal etiquette? I find many people's manners disgusting and not worth my time. I always give plenty of lee-way for the real person to appear when I go out on a date. That's why I email, chat and phone my prospective match way before meeting them. Most of the men on eHarmony are sloths! Rarely do I see men who are timely with their communications. It is just plain manners!!! Sorry for the tirade. I am not normally like this. To anyone else, if you wish to pay, not pay, 50-50, whatever, that's your business. I shall continue with mine and know I will find the right man. I am not worried because God is on my side. He wants happiness for all His children.
i would not call a man that wants to split everything with a woman not a "real" man, but i do know that if he is more concerned with having everything even, in my book something is amiss.

from my observations its mostly younger men and younger women that expect everything to be "fair"

in my experience, when a woman makes sure that everything is "fair", esp in terms of financial contribution, she will diminish her value to that man. men (at least the ones that i am interested in) love the pursuit and want to provide and take pride in doing so. with this also comes a guy that will be providing for you that is maybe not as emotional and demonstrative. the key here for the woman is to understand this and appreciate his loving gestures in providing for you. all too often i see women that start making emotional demands on these men that they just cant meet, they get frustrated and withdraw. i have heard women say "you dont care" to a man that is working all hours to make a good life for his family and this is venom to his ears. it is absolutely the most vile thing you can say to a man. most women dont get this.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with men that want to split 50/50. obviously there are women out there that want the same. its just not what i personally want. and its not about the money.





- August 5th, 2009, 11:13 am
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