A Mars Venus Guide: Dating Do's and Don'ts for Women

A Mars Venus Guide: Dating Do's and Don'ts for Women

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A Mars Venus Guide: Dating Do's and Don'ts for Women


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GingerHoney is offline GingerHoney Post #1  June 19,2009, 3:52pm
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I am not a fan of John Gray's point of view on many things (too generalized and too traditional), but I have to admit that this insight makes sense.
 
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bluskies4ever is offline bluskies4ever Post #2  June 19,2009, 4:57pm
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Where do we find these men that are "so intent on pleasing and impressing"?
The book THE RULES, also stresses that the first three dates should be "light and breezy."  Nothing like a cool breeze on a balmy summer night, huh?
I know Dr. John says that if we are a Yes Girl and say the movie rocks, then the man feels like a success, as if he was the director, screenwriter, and gopher.  But I respect men's intelligence and maturity more than that.  And chances are, he'll critique the flick too, right? Dr. Travis Stork, in his book DON'T BE THAT GIRL, has a chapter entitled DON'T BE A YES GIRL.  If you're just being sticky agreeable on every single thing, if he's the least bit perceptive and reality-bound, and not a dolt, he'll know she's trying too hard.  Don't be a complainer. but let's be real too.  Any man worth his salt will not become hysterical if his date expresses an honest opinion and values his opinion also.  Dr. John's scenario is about an insecure guy on the first few dates that is rather reactionary. 
I think we can give men more credit than that.
And in the story above, the woman gets to eat.  She gets food?!  Not just a coffee and/or movie?  Where do I sign up for these mythical men, half human and half horse, that are "intent on pleasing and impressing"?  Will he bring flowers too?
 
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Outre is offline Outre Post #3  June 19,2009, 5:27pm
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I have always enjoyed John Gray's advice.  It always intrigues me, however, how easy it is for women to connect with other women straightaway, but how careful women need to be with men in the initial stages of a potential relationship.  We really do have different approaches, but when it's "happening," it's awesome!
 
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eed is offline eed Post #4  June 19,2009, 5:30pm
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If I were a man, I think I'd be offended by Gray's portrayal of my gender. Men don't like to talk? They usually watch the game in silence? Please. Even the men I know who are my father's age (77) engage in conversation, and often talk at length!

I think it's a good idea for BOTH parties to try to draw each other out on the first date; otherwise, how will you learn about each other? But most of the men I've met have no problem talking about themselves (and I say that with affection).
 
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Wiseman2 is online now Wiseman2 Post #5  June 22,2009, 9:05am
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This "party" sounds like a poorly planned utter bore. The last time "a woman tested my verbal skills" was my high school English teacher.
wrote :
You can see this Martian/Venusian communication gap for yourself. Take a party with five couples. Often you’ll see the males gravitate to a TV set and they bond, mostly in silence, by watching a game together. Meanwhile the women will be busy in conversation over a dozen different topics.
On a first date especially, a woman should not attempt to test a man’s verbal skills, because they’ll come up short—and he’ll know that. This leaves him with the feeling that the date was not a success.
 
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outlaw1 is offline outlaw1 Post #6  June 24,2009, 12:35am

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eed wrote :
If I were a man, I think I'd be offended by Gray's portrayal of my gender. Men don't like to talk? They usually watch the game in silence? Please. Even the men I know who are my father's age (77) engage in conversation, and often talk at length!

I think it's a good idea for BOTH parties to try to draw each other out on the first date; otherwise, how will you learn about each other? But most of the men I've met have no problem talking about themselves (and I say that with affection).

Offended? Why because he tells the truth? Compared to women men don't like to talk. Football games, YES men grunt at each other!

Our language is very succinct compared to women's language. I can say Jacobs and Brees and many men know what I am talking about. Most women will have no clue.

John Gray is using the brilliance and genius of Dale Carnegie. Women are by far better communicators than most men. He's only sold 15 million books. But he's not PC-he tells the truth.

How many men use the words curtains and mauve in the same sentence?
Last edited by outlaw1; June 24,2009 at 12:39am.
 
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anniej is offline anniej Post #7  July 16,2009, 5:46am
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What's the advice for meeting for the first time when you are communicating by  long distance and a first date may be months away?
 
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fakecubed is offline fakecubed Post #8  July 16,2009, 6:51am
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outlaw1 wrote :
Offended? Why because he tells the truth? Compared to women men don't like to talk. Football games, YES men grunt at each other!

Our language is very succinct compared to women's language. I can say Jacobs and Brees and many men know what I am talking about. Most women will have no clue.

John Gray is using the brilliance and genius of Dale Carnegie. Women are by far better communicators than most men. He's only sold 15 million books. But he's not PC-he tells the truth.

How many men use the words curtains and mauve in the same sentence?
I agree. Men absolutely speak in grunts to each other, and we know it. If there's a perceived pressure to perform verbally, the guy panics because he wants to impress, but knows he can't meet the impossible standard that's mostly in his own mind.

It's partly that women talk just to talk, and don't realize that when they talk to a man, he's desperately trying to figure out why she's talking, and just wants to fix the problem. It leads to plenty of miscommunication and friction in relationships. The woman says "you didn't do *blah*, and that makes me feel *blah* and I want you to understand how I feel" and the guy hears "you need to do *blah* more often, and you're a failure because of it". Guys aren't too good at empathizing, and they definitely don't understand what women are saying, they just want to fix the problem so the woman likes him again. The woman doesn't get the "I feel what you feel" response she's wanting, and the guy feels like he's being nagged. Not good.

Men take pride in pleasing a date, because generally the way things work is women are the selectors in a relationship, and men are trying to impress women, not the other way around. We can argue about why that is forever, I'm sure, but evolutionarily, mating for a female is a 9 month commitment, but in that time a male can produce hundreds of children, it shouldn't be surprising who's more selective. Anyway, the pressure is on to impress. Especially at the start of a relationship, the guy is going to be putting in a lot (at least what he considers a lot) of effort into his little plans and plots to make the woman like him. Every minor complaint by the female is going to be seen by the guy as a fatal flaw in his plan. Women may be talking about how their chicken is too salty as if it's a problem with the restaurant, and wants the guy to empathize, but basically he's thinking you don't like him, and now his stress level is shooting through the roof because his male brain doesn't think he'll fulfill his genetic imperative to mate now. (On the other hand, if the guy's complaining about his food, what he's really saying is "don't blame me! please still like me!")

We can toss as much rational intelligence on top of dating as we want, but there is nothing more primal than the mating dance, and some things you just can't change about how people perceive events on a date. So ladies, have some mercy on our poor egos and keep things positive. Don't like the salty chicken? Talk about how good some other aspect of your food is, or the ambiance of the restaurant, or how smart he was for getting a reservation ahead of time instead of waiting in line out the door for a table. Chances are the guy isn't really paying much attention anyway, what he's really looking for is clues that you approve or disapprove of him, so he can alter his plans accordingly, and provided you don't put him on the spot, he'll probably be pretty comfortable if you're not criticizing the chef or waiter. We've got all these new social structures and arrangements set up, but when a guy picks a restaurant out and plans a date, it's basically the same process of going out and clubbing a gazelle and dragging it back to the cave.

Do I rationalize these kinds of subconscious things away? I'd sure like to think we're above it. But tens of thousands of years of human evolution has programmed males to respond to a woman's reactions in certain ways, and millions more years of animal mating behavior follow the same basic patterns. It ups the tension and it makes us feel like failures when a woman appears unimpressed by our efforts (or we think she will be based on her expectations). Nervous people don't enjoy their dates, and that means bad things for a burgeoning relationship. So men are insecure in the initial stages of dating. Should we be offended by or ashamed of it? Considering it's programmed into our genes since the dawn of time, I don't really think so. If we can recognize these primal forces though, we can hopefully learn to compensate, avoid disappointing each other or making each other nervous, and hopefully have better dates and relationships all around.
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IcecreamMoon is offline IcecreamMoon Post #9  July 16,2009, 7:00am
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anniej wrote :
What's the advice for meeting for the first time when you are communicating by long distance and a first date may be months away?
Do you think you could ask Dr. John for some personal advice on how to have 2 failed marriages and still write books about successful relationships and communication techniques?

It might take a while to reach him (he's a very busy man from what I hear), so in the meantime I would recommend to contact his eHA representative Dr. Harvey7

What do you think?
 
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fakecubed is offline fakecubed Post #10  July 16,2009, 7:08am
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IcecreamMoon wrote :
Do you think you could ask Dr. John for some personal advice on how to have 2 failed marriages and still write books about successful relationships and communication techniques?

It might take a while to reach him (he's a very busy man from what I hear), so in the meantime I would recommend to contact his eHA representative Dr. Harvey7

What do you think?
Sometimes you don't really want to communicate better, because then you find out you hate your spouse
 
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