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tbesq tbesq is offline
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PY wrote :

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One custom I never really knew about until very recently is that when wine is ordered, the man is supposed to refill the woman's wine glass as it nears empty. I usually don't drink wine with my food, so I had no idea. But one of my female friends recently told me she didn't accept a second date from him solely for this reason. She said it was primarily because he ordered the wine. I have only had one date in recent memory where we ordered wine, and my date did the refilling. Nothing was said about it.


Your female friend didn't accept a second date because the guy didn't fill her glass when it's near empty??? and that's because he ordered the wine?


Does she have a manual on how to breathe properly so that she wouldn't be offended?


I am always amazed by excuses that some people come up to NOT go on a second date...wow.


Scarlett/Simple mind...this is what I was talking about by being ridiculously high maintenance and go beyond scrutinizing a guy for being 'old fashion' or having manners.


Sorry Tbesq I know you were talking about your female friend, but something about it bugs me..sorry!

Seeing as you are a "wine" guy, I was actually interested to know how prevalent that "manpour" rule is, and whether I am a complete fool for not knowing that the rule existed.
- April 21st, 2009, 11:10 am
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tbesq wrote :

PY wrote :


tbesq wrote :





One custom I never really knew about until very recently is that when wine is ordered, the man is supposed to refill the woman's wine glass as it nears empty. I usually don't drink wine with my food, so I had no idea. But one of my female friends recently told me she didn't accept a second date from him solely for this reason. She said it was primarily because he ordered the wine. I have only had one date in recent memory where we ordered wine, and my date did the refilling. Nothing was said about it.


Your female friend didn't accept a second date because the guy didn't fill her glass when it's near empty??? and that's because he ordered the wine?


Does she have a manual on how to breathe properly so that she wouldn't be offended?


I am always amazed by excuses that some people come up to NOT go on a second date...wow.


Scarlett/Simple mind...this is what I was talking about by being ridiculously high maintenance and go beyond scrutinizing a guy for being 'old fashion' or having manners.


Sorry Tbesq I know you were talking about your female friend, but something about it bugs me..sorry!





Seeing as you are a "wine" guy, I was actually interested to know how prevalent that "manpour" rule is, and whether I am a complete fool for not knowing that the rule existed.
I'm far from being a 'wine' guy...I just happen to enjoy wine with food...plus I ain't doin' no subtle pretentious etiquette whatsoever.....


Life is already stressful without silly things like that.
- April 21st, 2009, 11:21 am
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Ingytravel Ingytravel is offline
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tbesq wrote :

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T...that is quite the interesting story about your friend..I am thinking there was more to her feelings (or lack thereof) for this man..since that seems quite the small detail to think of for a reason not to date..


But..that is her choice...as it is anyone's...so really doesn't bother me...


I just feel that all this we are discussingshould be a conversation that I have with my SO on what makes me feel loved and cared for, and what can I do that makes them feel loved...


When I am in a LTR/married...there isn't anything too big, or too small, if they say it makes them feel cherished..then I want to provide that for them


It's not about what the rest of the world does....it's our relationship...


That is why I talk about the book The Five Love Languages a lot...since sometimes we make the mistake of giving what WE like....instead of what the other person wants/needs...or what we THINK they might like....it's ALL about communicating this to my partner and not expecting them to 'guess'...


Now..I really look at a person's intentions....in the beginning of dating...(first few dates)...I am appreciative of even the smallest attempt at being a gentleman and showing care for me...as I try to do for them..since we haven't really talked about these things...and yes...I love the 'chivalrous' things like pulling out the chair, opening the car door..etc..and thank someone immediately when they are being kind..


But..I realize that not every man was brought up to learn or do these things and that is pefectly ok and wouldn't think badly of them...


IF however...we are now dating...and I have said that certain things make me feel good, and he were to say.."oh well...too bad...I just don't "do" that..."...that is obviously a whole other issue going on...





She and I were catching up, hadn't seen each other in almost three years. She was in a serious relationship for two years, which ended almost a year ago. She gave me a rundown of her dating woes since then, each time giving the reasons she stopped dating him. With this particular guy, that was the reason she gave. You're probably right, there may have been more to the story. But she spared no details in describing her dates...I get the feeling if there was more to it she would have told me.


As you stated in your last paragraph, I am amenable to any things that women like to do. But the important thing to remember is that chivalry is a choice, not an obligation. In other words, it's "great" to do the things that women expect, but there's no law that says we have to do them. That said, I would certainly have no problem pouring wine for my first date (although I'd at first feel like I was trying to "get her drunk,"), etc. There was a thread late last year about which side of his date a man should walk when on a sidewalk. Well, didn't know there was a rule about that either, but if it's important to her I'll certainly try my best to remember to do it. The thing with me is, it's easier for me to accept certain things if I understand why they're being done.
Ohh..I guess what I meant about the 'more to it'...was more on her end and maybe not being ready to date anyone...or unhappy with something in her own life....so finding fault in even the smallest things in someone..Kind of like when I have a day where you 'get up on the wrong side of the bed' and every little thing seems to annoy me..HAHAHA...


But as I mentioned..it really is her choice and maybe it is a HUGE deal for her..that's ok...or same thing for a guy..it really never makes a difference to me what the reason is...if they are not in to me...they just aren't..no worries...moving on


And yes...I too, as you know by these boards...LOL..I am a 'why' kind of gal...trying to always figure out why I do/say the things I do..as well as hope that other's can learn about themselves too...that way..the easier it is to communicate what you want/need...


The only thing I can say to guys here...just like the threads on a guy paying for a first date...is ONLY do what YOU want to do....period....if you are even for ONE second resenting it....then don't...We will pick up on that...If you want to open the door, than great Do it because you want to show someone you care...if not...don't pretend...it's that simple...


For me, I am looking for a man who is mature enough to work through things from his past..and be joyful and hopeful about dating..who doesn't feel "Burnt out, blame everyone else, or have a big chip on their shoulder' and blend me into 'ALL women" do such and such....that is not the guy for me.. Because I don't feel that way towards men...I adore them...I have had great relationships as a whole..even though they ended for different reasons through the years...It's always taken two people...not all 'his fault' and vice/versa...
- April 21st, 2009, 11:48 am
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Ingytravel wrote :

tbesq wrote :


Ingytravel wrote :


T...that is quite the interesting story about your friend..I am thinking there was more to her feelings (or lack thereof) for this man..since that seems quite the small detail to think of for a reason not to date..


But..that is her choice...as it is anyone's...so really doesn't bother me...


I just feel that all this we are discussingshould be a conversation that I have with my SO on what makes me feel loved and cared for, and what can I do that makes them feel loved...


When I am in a LTR/married...there isn't anything too big, or too small, if they say it makes them feel cherished..then I want to provide that for them


It's not about what the rest of the world does....it's our relationship...


That is why I talk about the book The Five Love Languages a lot...since sometimes we make the mistake of giving what WE like....instead of what the other person wants/needs...or what we THINK they might like....it's ALL about communicating this to my partner and not expecting them to 'guess'...


Now..I really look at a person's intentions....in the beginning of dating...(first few dates)...I am appreciative of even the smallest attempt at being a gentleman and showing care for me...as I try to do for them..since we haven't really talked about these things...and yes...I love the 'chivalrous' things like pulling out the chair, opening the car door..etc..and thank someone immediately when they are being kind..


But..I realize that not every man was brought up to learn or do these things and that is pefectly ok and wouldn't think badly of them...


IF however...we are now dating...and I have said that certain things make me feel good, and he were to say.."oh well...too bad...I just don't "do" that..."...that is obviously a whole other issue going on...





She and I were catching up, hadn't seen each other in almost three years. She was in a serious relationship for two years, which ended almost a year ago. She gave me a rundown of her dating woes since then, each time giving the reasons she stopped dating him. With this particular guy, that was the reason she gave. You're probably right, there may have been more to the story. But she spared no details in describing her dates...I get the feeling if there was more to it she would have told me.


As you stated in your last paragraph, I am amenable to any things that women like to do. But the important thing to remember is that chivalry is a choice, not an obligation. In other words, it's "great" to do the things that women expect, but there's no law that says we have to do them. That said, I would certainly have no problem pouring wine for my first date (although I'd at first feel like I was trying to "get her drunk,"), etc. There was a thread late last year about which side of his date a man should walk when on a sidewalk. Well, didn't know there was a rule about that either, but if it's important to her I'll certainly try my best to remember to do it. The thing with me is, it's easier for me to accept certain things if I understand why they're being done.


Ohh..I guess what I meant about the 'more to it'...was more on her end and maybe not being ready to date anyone...or unhappy with something in her own life....so finding fault in even the smallest things in someone..Kind of like when I have a day where you 'get up on the wrong side of the bed' and every little thing seems to annoy me..HAHAHA...


But as I mentioned..it really is her choice and maybe it is a HUGE deal for her..that's ok...or same thing for a guy..it really never makes a difference to me what the reason is...if they are not in to me...they just aren't..no worries...moving on


And yes...I too, as you know by these boards...LOL..I am a 'why' kind of gal...trying to always figure out why I do/say the things I do..as well as hope that other's can learn about themselves too...that way..the easier it is to communicate what you want/need...


The only thing I can say to guys here...just like the threads on a guy paying for a first date...is ONLY do what YOU want to do....period....if you are even for ONE second resenting it....then don't...We will pick up on that...If you want to open the door, than great Do it because you want to show someone you care...if not...don't pretend...it's that simple...


For me, I am looking for a man who is mature enough to work through things from his past..and be joyful and hopeful about dating..who doesn't feel "Burnt out, blame everyone else, or have a big chip on their shoulder' and blend me into 'ALL women" do such and such....that is not the guy for me.. Because I don't feel that way towards men...I adore them...I have had great relationships as a whole..even though they ended for different reasons through the years...It's always taken two people...not all 'his fault' and vice/versa...
Agreed on all points. It is certainly possible that my friend was just not in the right frame of mind for dating. I think with men we're likely to be on our game for a date, because after all we are usually the ones who ask for the date. My friend is very attractive and gets asked out often; I think in those situations she may not always have to be (or want to be) on her game for every date, and you sometimes "ding" someone unfairly.


Great advice to men about not doing something you don't want to do. Obviously, if that something is paying for a meal, a man will face an uphill battle I've only begrudged paying for a meal when my date turned out to be very rude, or in the cases of online dating, she turns out to be something negatively different than advertised.
- April 21st, 2009, 11:57 am
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T..the thread was getting too long to cut/past...but quick side note on the paying for a meal...you still have choices...either only go for coffee..or ask her to go dutch in the beginning...or just meet in between any 'meal times'....


so...it still boils down to ONLY doing what you want to do...there is no HAVE to here...or uphill battle..you aren't a 'victim'...make whatever decision you feel comfortable with in regards to paying one cent, or not for your date, to manners, to being 'chilvarous', etc...


My issue comes when you use terms like 'expect' or 'law' or 'rule'..(like in your first post) .it's making it sound like you don't have a choice...but it's all your choice on how you act, what you offer, what you say, or how you show love and care for someone else


Just like in life...with online dating..you aren't 'guaranteed' anything..and if you are doing those things only to 'get something' in return...then I would say don't do them...Even if a person doesn't say thank you...that shouldn't make you not do something if that is in your heart...(obviously you just wouldn't ask them out again)....but to carry that 'negative emotion' over to the next date with someone new...isn't fair to the new gal who could be wonderful
- April 21st, 2009, 12:05 pm
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Hmmm I want to add that next time I go out,I'd rather my date to use a 'Sorry I don't think we'd be a good match' or similar explanation in case we didn't work out rather than using silly excuses like I poured my wine wrong, I wearcargo khakipants and she thinks it's so ''Spring 2008"...etc...it shows a huge chip on her shoulder and immaturity.


Other than that...please carry on this lovely discussion
- April 21st, 2009, 12:07 pm
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PY wrote :

jayjay wrote :


tbesq wrote :


One custom I never really knew about until very recently is that when wine is ordered, the man is supposed to refill the woman's wine glass as it nears empty. I usually don't drink wine with my food, so I had no idea. But one of my female friends recently told me she didn't accept a second date from him solely for this reason. She said it was primarily because he ordered the wine. I have only had one date in recent memory where we ordered wine, and my date did the refilling. Nothing was said about it.


There really are an incredible number and variety of 'deal-breakers' that different people have.


and there are also b@ll breakers...
LOL
- April 21st, 2009, 12:09 pm
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It is a lovely discussion! I'm learning a lot, and not just about courtesy.


Winn, thank you. I imagine after a lifetime with your husband, this single life must make your head spin sometimes! So the courtesies really do help, giving guidelines for the awkward parts until we are more comfortable with one another. I wish you all good things in this next part of your journey.


It's truly nice when someone has a similar idea of courteous behavior--not all things are carved in stone (she dumped him for the second pour???? oh, my.) Sorry, t, but I also suspect she was hunting for excuses and only hope she was courteous to him when she next turned him down.


I'm hearing a lot about what men do for women that is courteous--"old fashioned" is going to have to go, bocca, I agree.


How about what we can do for men? Are there any absolutes, that are not just cultural differences?


One that's a biggie for me is being on time. If meeting at a mutually agreed upon place, or he's coming to my home--I really do believe that I should be ON TIME. I need to make all effort to actually be ready early, so that whenhe (who HAS made the effort to be on time) is there, he's not cooling his heels and wasting his own valuable time. Of course, there are extenuating circumstances at times, but I think too many times I hear female friends make excuses for what to me is a demonstration of lack of respect for him.


- April 21st, 2009, 12:25 pm
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Sorry to the OP for the digression
- April 21st, 2009, 12:26 pm
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lindseyk wrote :

boccabum wrote :


scarlet13 wrote :


i once had a man pick me up for a date and instead of coming to the door, he honked his horn. i'm kinda stubborn so i just stayed in the house, and then he called from his cell phone all upset "I'm outside waiting for you!"


i told him i knew he was outside, i was waiting for him to get the hint and come to the door like a gentleman.


i dunno. i'd like to see a return of manners in general.


See...your example is one of modern but nasty behavior.


I think manners, in general, should always rule. However, when I hear the phrase "old fashioned" all I think of are good manners and effort in one direction > from the man to the woman. I know, this sounds unfair, but that's what I think. Usually, its formed in a statement like this; "I have old fashioned values. I expect the man to chase me, hold open the door, stand up when I enter the room, ask me out, call me, take care of me, etc." But I never hear old fashioned behavior that goes the other direction (other than not having sex with him).


I think it's important to respond appropriately to courtesy. I always thank a man if he opens a door for me or does any of those little things. I don't expect them and don't insist on them, but they are always appreciated when given. I am also happy to do little things without expecting them to be reciprocated. It's not all about me. One of the joys of caring for somebody is giving those little things just because you care that much.
I agree totally with Lindsey... being a gentleman won't take away a man his manhood, so to speak... and this are small details that show that he cares. I too try to do and reciprocate attention... but this "old fashion" details are a sign of interest, signals that appreciate so much. To have his coat on my back if it starts raining, or it's chilly, whatever...


If you interprete them as a sign of giving away power, i think you got it all wrong.
- April 21st, 2009, 12:30 pm
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