What does this sound like to you? Please give me your take on his motives


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Lindac7 is offline Lindac7 Post #1  November 25,2008, 1:13pm
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Here's a true story of Ted, a man I once dated. We met at a church dance, andTed boldly approached me, full of confidence. I did not detect any nervousness, anxiety or insecurity on his part. After preliminary introductions, we danced to a few songs before saying goodbye and moving on to other dance partners. One of the songs we danced to was slow, and he immediately moved in close to dance cheek to cheek, which I didn't have a problem with, but it was quite unusual compared to behavior I've seen with other men in this group. He told me later on the phone this was a test to see how I'd react. OK, that's fine.


Before leaving that night, we danced again, and Ted asked for my number; I gave it to him, and he gave me his business card and wrote his home phone number on it. This was a Friday night; the next day, he called me and we talked for a little over an hour. He asked for a date. I told him I had plans tonight (which I did, with another man I'd met online). On this particular weekend, Monday was a holiday, and he asked if we could go out Monday night. I said yes. That night, Saturday, the other man I had plans with (Mike) called early in the afternoon and asked if we could meet earlier. I said yes, so after our meeting he said he would be at the dance tonight. It was clear after our meeting that we had not clicked. I decided to go to the dance, too, and Ted was there. We danced cheek to cheek again, and he said he thought I had plans tonight. I told him I did, but they got changed, so I came to the dance after all. I got the distinct feeling he thought I was lying, but I couldn't help that things played outas they did,and if he couldn't believe I was telling him the truth, that was his problem. Mike was more interested in meetingother women, and I didn't care; he'd flown in from out of town, andwas obviously trying to get the most bang from his dating buck.


Monday night, when Ted arrived at my door, he handed me2 dozen red roses. He appeared to sincerely be smitten, but again, I detected no nervousness, anxiety or insecurity. He seemed quite confident and like he knew exactly what he was doing. He tookcomplete charge of everything throughout our date, and I just followed his lead.


We went to play Laser Tag first, then had dinner. While waiting to play, we sat on a bench and he made a point of sitting right up next to me, holding hands and making solid contact with our bodies touching from our shoulders down to our knees. There was nobody else around, so no need to sit this close. While this was a bit unusual first date behavior, I didn't think too much of it, other thanit seemed a bit premature to me considering how long we'd known each other, but I figured he must like a lot of closeness and be really touchy-feely, and this was another testto see if I was comfortable with it. I do like it, but it was just a bit much so soon.


Over dinner, Ted told me he dated a lot of women, and that once every year he went to Paris on business for his job. He said he wanted to be able to take his wife with him on this trip each year, and it was miserable for him to go alone. At one point I saw him openly and blatantly eyeing my bodywith no semblance of discretion, though the rest of the time he looked at my face.He told me a story of a business trip where he was at the front desk of his hotel,asking for a map to his destination. They didn't have one. A woman was nearby who overheard, and offered to draw a map for him. She followed him into his room,lifted her sweater up and asked, 'You really wanted a date, didn't you?" He said no, he really just wanted directions, and he insisted she leave. For the sake of this story, he is presumably a religious man who does not believe in premarital sex, and he was single at the timethis happened. His point was to illustratehis ability to control himself and not let a woman tempt him (something that is expected and highly regarded in this church). I got the distinct feeling he was challenging me, and I wondered if he thought I was going to try tempting him like that.


We talked about much more, but these were the key things Ted saidthat gave me the impression he was trying to manipulate me (besides the 2 dozen red roses), and I didn't like it or feel that I could trust him. Nevertheless, back at my place, I invited him in to see what he would do. I decidedthat because I did not feel right about him, Iwas not going to make a move on him. He didn't have a lot of time to hang out, as he had a one-hour drive home, and had to be at work early the next day.


He was leaning on my fireplace mantel, looking at my CD collection while I put my purse down. I walked over to him, faced him, and mirrored his posture to see if he would try to kiss me. After talking for a couple minutes, he suddenly said he needed to go, gave me a quick perfunctory hug, and left so fast, I didn't have time to think or respond - however, in that one quick moment where he moved in for the hug and mumbled his goodbye, I saw his nervousness out of the corner of my eye.


I realized afterTed left that he was waiting for me to kiss him, and when I didn't, he left. In addition, henever called meagain after this.


OK, men (and women if you want), why do you thinkhe did all this stuff, and what was he hoping to accomplish? I've gathered some information since and think I know pretty much what he was doing, but I'd like your gut level, objective responses to what I've shared. Let me know if you need any questions answered.


Thanks in advance!
 
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bravethestorm is offline bravethestorm Post #2  November 25,2008, 1:33pm
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Hmm I'm a little shocked that someone is so bold in public yet in private he runs off. Still the flowers and things seem pretty rehearsed so maybe he has lot of practice at it.


No idea...seems a confusing type of guy to me. Just all the touchy feely so fast would have been too much for me.
 
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tbesq is offline tbesq Post #3  November 25,2008, 1:33pm
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Ted played himself by building himself up as some kind of "King of Chastisy." Sounds like you called his bluff.
 
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D_Lion is online now D_Lion Post #4  November 25,2008, 2:11pm
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I say he is impulsive and has limited experience with women.
“[/b]songs we danced to was slow, and he immediately moved in close to dance cheek to cheek, which I didn't have a problem with, but it was quite unusual compared to behavior I've seen with other men”[/b]
If this is a technically “correct” way to perform the dance – i.e., what a skilled dancer would do – then I’d not see any issue here.
“[/b]he thought I had plans tonight. I told him I did, but they got changed, so I came to the dance after all. I got the distinct feeling he thought I was lying” [/b]
You don’t say why you thought this, but I am accustomed to women making excuses of “unavailability” when they should just say ‘thank you, but no” to turn down an invitation. Frankly, it’s annoying; he has likely experienced the same thing. I’d have been turned off if you pulled this schedule “fliparoo” on me, and I would have also thought you a liar. In the event you became free after turning down an invitation, I think you should have called to say “guess what? I am now available.”
“[/b]handed me 2 dozen red roses”[/b]
I’d call this massive overkill, but I am not “traditional,” I don’t invest hope until things start to progress, and I’m not paid enough to consider this normal. Maybe it’s okay.
“we sat on a bench and he made a point of sitting right up next to me, holding hands and making solid contact with our bodies touching”[/b]
I’d have tried this too, if the woman let me.
Paris and women stories[/b]
Not that rare to make oneself out to appear desirable to, and experienced with, the opposite sex; again, lack of experience with women, I think.
“[/b]talking for a couple minutes, he suddenly said he needed to go, gave me a quick perfunctory hug, and left so fast”[/b]
I’ve done this. When I’m used to going to sleep at 9:00 and find myself at a woman’s place at 10:00 with an hour’s drive home, I leave quickly too. I’d ignore this.
“I realized after Ted left that he was waiting for me to kiss him, and when I didn't, he left.”[/b]
How do you know? (I’d have gone for the kiss myself.)
“he never called me again after this.”[/b]
That is odd … too much, then nothing. Do you think you had a good time?
I still say impulsive and inexperienced.
 
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stillthesame is offline stillthesame Post #5  November 25,2008, 2:13pm
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when he mentioned a wife, was he talking about a future wife?kinda strange, maybe him telling you that story of the hotel room, was letting you know that hes not that type???never heard of that before.but it could be that hes afraid?
 
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stillthesame is offline stillthesame Post #6  November 25,2008, 2:19pm
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he thought I had plans tonight. I told him I did, but they got changed, so I came to the dance after all. I got the distinct feeling he thought I was lying”
You don’t say why you thought this, but I am accustomed to women making excuses of “unavailability” when they should just say ‘thank you, but no” to turn down an invitation. Frankly, it’s annoying; he has likely experienced the same thing. I’d have been turned off if you pulled this schedule “fliparoo” on me, and I would have also thought you a liar. In the event you became free after turning down an invitation, I think you should have called to say “guess what? I am now available.”


men have to realize this is a hard situation, when your dating and you have 2 or 3 men, who whether you meet them online and they respond to your ad, or just out in public, or however you set up dates, you want to be able to cut to the chase, the others dates dont have to know, although if someone has made plans for 2,3,4 or more dates with diff people, that person should see what each person has to offer, process of elimination, i find it works for me, and im sure that if i am asked out the guy might or might not have other women that they have a date with whom they want to compare.
 
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Lindac7 is offline Lindac7 Post #7  November 25,2008, 2:52pm
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D_Lion,358864 wrote :
I say he is impulsive and has limited experience with women.
“[/b]songs we danced to was slow, and he immediately moved in close to dance cheek to cheek, which I didn't have a problem with, but it was quite unusual compared to behavior I've seen with other men”[/b]
If this is a technically “correct” way to perform the dance – i.e., what a skilled dancer would do – then I’d not see any issue here.
“[/b]he thought I had plans tonight. I told him I did, but they got changed, so I came to the dance after all. I got the distinct feeling he thought I was lying” [/b]
You don’t say why you thought this, but I am accustomed to women making excuses of “unavailability” when they should just say ‘thank you, but no” to turn down an invitation. Frankly, it’s annoying; he has likely experienced the same thing. I’d have been turned off if you pulled this schedule “fliparoo” on me, and I would have also thought you a liar. In the event you became free after turning down an invitation, I think you should have called to say “guess what? I am now available.”
“[/b]handed me 2 dozen red roses”[/b]
I’d call this massive overkill, but I am not “traditional,” I don’t invest hope until things start to progress, and I’m not paid enough to consider this normal. Maybe it’s okay.
“we sat on a bench and he made a point of sitting right up next to me, holding hands and making solid contact with our bodies touching”[/b]
I’d have tried this too, if the woman let me.
Paris and women stories[/b]
Not that rare to make oneself out to appear desirable to, and experienced with, the opposite sex; again, lack of experience with women, I think.
“[/b]talking for a couple minutes, he suddenly said he needed to go, gave me a quick perfunctory hug, and left so fast”[/b]
I’ve done this. When I’m used to going to sleep at 9:00 and find myself at a woman’s place at 10:00 with an hour’s drive home, I leave quickly too. I’d ignore this.
“I realized after Ted left that he was waiting for me to kiss him, and when I didn't, he left.”[/b]
How do you know? (I’d have gone for the kiss myself.)
“he never called me again after this.”[/b]
That is odd … too much, then nothing. Do you think you had a good time?
I still say impulsive and inexperienced.


D Lion,


Dancing cheek to cheek was not technically correct for the dance. It was simply him pushing for closeness to test my reaction and see if I was comfortable with it. He even told me later that he does that with other women. It's part of his standard repertoire of tests.


Him thinking I was lying was simply a feeling I got from his reaction, in combination with my intuition. When he first asked me out, he wanted it to be that night; I told him I was busy, then I became available that night after all because the other guy moved our meeting to earlier. So Ted was not expecting me to show up at the dance; hence I think he thought I was lying about being busy. Since we already had firm plans for Monday, and we'd just met Friday night, I didn't see the point in moving our Monday date up to Saturday night. By doing that, I would have been rushing things.


I thought 2 dozen roses on a first date wasvery definitely massive overkill, and that's what started my suspicions. No man has ever brought me flowers on a first date; that's just plain stupid on the man's part, and sets up ridiculous expectations that can't be maintained. It's just a very bad idea overall for many reasons. It sends the woman a clear message that he is smitten with her. If that is not in fact the case, then it's a flagrant manipulation.


As I said, sitting close didn't really bother me; it was more the idea that he was doing it so soon, again, pushing the close physical contact from the very beginning.


The point to me about Paris was the obvious carrot he was dangling in front of me; 'If I marry you, this is what you have to look forward to, once a year'. What woman would NOT find that appealing? It was like he was setting me up to jump all over his bones.


Again, the story about resisting the streetwalker was setting me up to tell me that no matter how attractive I am and how much I want him, he would not succumb (thereby setting up the opposite dynamic between us so I would become the pursuer and him the pursuee).


The fact that he didn't try to kiss me, but instead left in a clearly nervous state sent a very different message from his apparent confidence the rest of the evening. I felt that the sequence of events and manipulations were designed to get me to jump his bones with passion.


I don't know for sure that he wanted me to kiss him, but it certainly appeared that's what I was expected to do after everything he'd done.


I think he never called again because I didn't respond the way he wanted me to. Since I saw through his manipulations and essentially called his bluff, he felt he couldn't control me, so he stopped trying and moved on. Remember, he dates a lot of women. All the physical testing, calling beforehand, building up for the date, the flowers, Paris, chastity story, etc. were designed to get me worked up so I'd chase him and decide I HAD to have him, and work to be on the top of his list. When I feel I'm being manipulated by someone, I purposely don't take the bait just to see how they'll handle it. I felt like he was playing way too many games, and I didn't appreciate it.


Other than the specific things I listed, yes, I otherwise had a good time; but it took a while after he left to sort through all the confusion from the conflicting messages he'd sent.


As it turns out, after talking to some people, I found out that he uses this exact same strategy on every woman he dates; and among the group that attend those church dances, he's dated roughly half of all the women. I was brand new at the time we met and knew none of this. Even the Laser Tag game was a test he uses to find out the level of a woman's aggressiveness. The only thing I was not able to verify was if he brings 2 dozen red roses to each date. Since everything else was exactly the same, I'd bet everyone else gets them, too.


Inexperienced? On the contrary, he was quite smooth in the way the entire date played out; so smooth, in fact, that at the end as we walked to my front door, I had a thought that he wasTOO smooth with everything he did, which screamsa player. That's why later when I found out more, it all made more sense.


Of course, the bottom line is he's not REALLY experienced with women in the true sense of the word; this is just the game he plays because he thinks that's what will work for him.
 
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D_Lion is online now D_Lion Post #8  November 25,2008, 2:58pm
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stillthesame,358875 wrote :


men have to realize this is a hard situation, when your dating and you have 2 or 3 men, who whether you meet them online and they respond to your ad, or just out in public, or however you set up dates, you want to be able to cut to the chase, the others dates dont have to know, although if someone has made plans for 2,3,4 or more dates with diff people, that person should see what each person has to offer, process of elimination, i find it works for me, and im sure that if i am asked out the guy might or might not have other women that they have a date with whom they want to compare.

At issue is not that the woman has other dates (that is expected until she becomes engaged, or, for the new-fangled folk, commences an “LTR” at issue is that she turns down an invitation with a lie, in the form of a vague “I’m busy,” or with a fake excuse, which is also a lie: “I could not possibly have dinner with you on Friday. My dog gets groomed / fingernails get painted / car gets serviced every Friday and it would be too much trouble [to waste my precious time with the likes of you.”] I expect most men have encountered this; it is always bad manners, and it is always infuriating.
Once again, the civilized way to decline an invitation is “thank you, but no.” If you are truly busy at the time in question, say “I’d love to, but I cannot make Friday; how about Saturday, or Friday next week?” In either case, no explanation is warranted, none should be given, and a gentleman will never ask.
Should your conflict unexpectedly clear up, it is polite to call the other suitor and convey that you are available. To appear out on the town rightly arouses his doubt that you have, or ever had, any interest.
 
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Lindac7 is offline Lindac7 Post #9  November 25,2008, 3:00pm
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stillthesame,358868 wrote :

when he mentioned a wife, was he talking about a future wife?kinda strange, maybe him telling you that story of the hotel room, was letting you know that hes not that type???never heard of that before.but it could be that hes afraid?
Yes, he was talking about a future wife (this church believes heavily in marriage, and most all dating singles are very marriage-minded). He was painting a picture to me of what life would be like with him if I became his wife, particularly going to Paris every year. The story of the hotel room I felt was his challenge to me not to try tempting him.


I think he's definitely afraid, absolutely; buthis fearis a bit more convoluted than the average guy.


People who need to control another person like he did, are always motivated by fear. That's why they feel they need to control others, so they can feel 'safe' and not afraid.
 
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Lindac7 is offline Lindac7 Post #10  November 25,2008, 3:19pm
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stillthesame,358875 wrote :

he thought I had plans tonight. I told him I did, but they got changed, so I came to the dance after all. I got the distinct feeling he thought I was lying”
You don’t say why you thought this, but I am accustomed to women making excuses of “unavailability” when they should just say ‘thank you, but no” to turn down an invitation. Frankly, it’s annoying; he has likely experienced the same thing. I’d have been turned off if you pulled this schedule “fliparoo” on me, and I would have also thought you a liar. In the event you became free after turning down an invitation, I think you should have called to say “guess what? I am now available.”


men have to realize this is a hard situation, when your dating and you have 2 or 3 men, who whether you meet them online and they respond to your ad, or just out in public, or however you set up dates, you want to be able to cut to the chase, the others dates dont have to know, although if someone has made plans for 2,3,4 or more dates with diff people, that person should see what each person has to offer, process of elimination, i find it works for me, and im sure that if i am asked out the guy might or might not have other women that they have a date with whom they want to compare.
Stillthesame,


I think you are missing a point I made earlier in an above post. My unavailability wasn't an excuse, it was the truth.


When he called me on Saturday asking for a date, he wanted it for that night. I said I wasn't available because I already had plans (with Mike), so we made our date for Monday night.


Shortly after getting off the phone with Ted, Mike called and wanted to know if we could meet earlier (literally in an hour from the time of his call). I agreed to meet him, and we did, so we were done with our meeting before nightfall, which made me then available to do something that evening. At the time, I didn't know there was another dance that night; Mike was the one who told me about it. Rather than sit home and do nothing, I decided to go, not realizing Ted would be there. It was roughly around 5 or 6 pm when I realized my dilemma, and I didn't feel it would be appropriate for me to then call Ted and say, "Guess what? I'm available for tonight after all". It was not only last-minute, it was rushing our first date (we had just met the night before). On top of that, he lived a one-hour drive from me. I don't believe in putting people in a sticky situation like that, especially at the last minute. That can doom a first date before it begins.


Since Ted dates so many women, he should have realized that things like this happen. This had absolutely nothing to do with him, and there was nothing untoward or underhanded about how it worked out, or what I did. In addition, when he saw me at the dance that night, he seemed genuinely pleased to see me. When he asked me about why I was at the dance, I told him the truth - I DID have plans for tonight, but they got changed, which made me available. He did actually see me talking to Mike at the dance, but of course he had no idea Mike and I had just met hours before the dance, or that Mike was originally my date for the evening.


I don't see that I did anything wrong, and felt Iwas completely within my rights to do what I did. I also felt that I handled it the best way possible, all things considered.
 
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