bigfincat is offline bigfincat Post #71  July 27,2010, 3:52pm
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DashMN wrote :
And what a slippery slope that can be. We really can't consider another judgmental, without also presuming to judge them ourselves. Nor can we criticize someone for looking down their nose at others, without also looking down our nose at them.
I don't believe this to be true.

When I hear one individual assassinate another individual's character then they have shown themselves to be judgemental. That is a fact that they did judge & expressed it.
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #72  July 27,2010, 4:04pm
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singinggirl wrote :
In many ways, you're right, LBMM. The most uncomfortable aspect is that it is my sister who is probably the most close-minded person I know. If anything doesn't fit into her idea of right, then they are wrong. Period. No questions asked. I have had to learn to just say nothing often because it is more conducive to a peaceful family gathering and, in the long run, I am not going to change her mind, as she is not going to change mine.
I have to do that a lot, too, SG. In the end, there are principles worth sacrificing a relationship over but most of them don't have to do with my so-called wider world-view versus theirs. Besides, all of these people, even the ones who won't speak to me because they can't change my mind , have something to teach.
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #73  July 27,2010, 4:12pm
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bigfincat wrote :
I don't believe this to be true.

When I hear one individual assassinate another individual's character then they have shown themselves to be judgemental. That is a fact that they did judge & expressed it.
Yes...but in hearing that, you are applying judgment as well. It's not a bad thing, but you might not know all the circumstances behind why they did what they did. Not that this makes them right to do it.

But if you hear that, you may judge them as untrustworthy or unkind, which may be a fair judgment, but it is a judgment nevertheless.

Not all judgment is bad. Not all open-mindedness is good.
 
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bigfincat is offline bigfincat Post #74  July 27,2010, 4:32pm
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Yes...but in hearing that, you are applying judgment as well. It's not a bad thing, but you might not know all the circumstances behind why they did what they did. Not that this makes them right to do it.

But if you hear that, you may judge them as untrustworthy or unkind, which may be a fair judgment, but it is a judgment nevertheless.

Not all judgment is bad. Not all open-mindedness is good.
I hear what you are saying... but it is entirely possible to see a judgement being made while not placing any value on the stance.

If I am indifferent on an issue or a conversation it can still be possible to recognize judgement.
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #75  July 27,2010, 5:23pm
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bigfincat wrote :
I hear what you are saying... but it is entirely possible to see a judgement being made while not placing any value on the stance.

If I am indifferent on an issue or a conversation it can still be possible to recognize judgement.
Quite possibly. You've given me something else to ponder.
 
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bigfincat is offline bigfincat Post #76  July 27,2010, 5:54pm
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Can't help but get a bit political.

I used to listen to Glenn Beck. He is extremely judgemental. His entire show is based on that.

I disagreed with 90 % of his judgements but still found myself not placing him as being "evil"... which is a word that he uses often.... without evidence to support that view of most he attributes it to.

I even met him & shook his hand & easily conversed with him. There was no issue.

Fast-forward to now......after the last 2 months, I regret touching his hand as he has proven to be a disgusting individual. I can think of a few more words but that will do.

I didn't judge him really for his comments & found his show to be entertaining & listened often.

I can only be so open-minded.

Good thing that Dennis Miller is on the radio at the same time now so I can listen to him.

Conservative but respectful for the most part. Also much more open-minded & a far greater entertainer.

I am tolerant of a little bit of judgement but there sure is a line. LOL
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #77  July 27,2010, 6:01pm
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So, it's important to know where those lines are - to know when being open-minded has crossed over into endorsing something you find represhensible.

Also, what you're describing here sounds like the adaptability...flexibility...to reverse your stance when additional evidence supports doing so. I honestly think that's important in open-minded thinking...to acknowledge that not all beliefs, choices, or stances are immutable. Rather, it seems, most are not.

How many times have you washed your hands?
Last edited by littlebluemonkeymind; July 27,2010 at 6:06pm. Reason: I had another thought there but it slipped away. Stupid slippery thoughts...maybe it'll come back later...
 
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Wootz is offline Wootz Post #78  July 27,2010, 6:56pm
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This has got me thinking, here. And rambling. And I'm just about exhausted, so it probably shows.

An open mind, to me, can explore and learn about something without yet accepting it. A *wise* mind, I would say, would weigh the truths, the information gathered, all the relevant details, and then make a decision. To me, all minds are open to a degree, insomuch as they are willing and able to take in information regardless of its relationship to what is known to them and accepted as true, morally right, and important- and all minds are closed to a degree, such that they have a point past which they do not wish to go. People will fall at different points on this continuum, depending on the subject at hand and the degree that they are willing to learn about it.

This is all in a general sense, mind you, and by my own language and definitions. *grin*

On the more “open” end of the scale, and what I commonly refer to when I say “open mind,” exhibits a quality of restraint. Self-restraint, necessarily, because we freedom loving individuals (not just Americans, mind you) don’t like too much intrusion into our daily lives. And because we are responsible for the things we do, we can look at the consequences of those actions, and learn from them.

To be open and also to show restraint, first one must think (the intransitive verb, in this case). Being *able* to think is not thinking, nor is reacting. It is at once the highest and most complicated level of learning- above basic memorization and association, it involves conceiving, inferring, and weighing the merits and follies of things. Most generalizations (which we’ve all seen examples of), absolute declarations, ultimatums, and suchlike seem formulaic to me. Simple syllogisms can disprove them (i.e. if a statement is predicated on “all” or “every,” then only one example need exist to invalidate the statement). Once disproved, the position can fall into doubt. Thus thinking ahead may restrain the impulse to make such a statement. And if one is open to the possibility that one can learn something new, even from people who may at first incite frustration, anger, or distaste, it can prevent such errors from occurring.

So far there have been several examples of tolerance and curiosity about cultures and ideas vastly different from ones I am familiar with. *grin* This is a good thing! Through learning, I haven’t seen one instance of an instant convert. Even the slight change in one’s own mind which may occur happens over time. The thing is, each of us must first allow it to happen. We have the responsibility to think through what ideas and attitudes we will change in ourselves, and consider the consequences.

It is all too easy to not think. I, myself, am very, very good at it. At least, I like to think so- I enjoy living in the moment, when I can. *grin* But the moment passes, and there are things that I really ought to think through first. Expanding my vocabulary of curse words when some bung-head driver cuts me off in traffic could become a habit, if I let it. And people will, rightly, I believe, judge me from my actions- and here on these boards, words are actions. Once they are said, once I click the submit button, my words are there to be seen by any who choose to read them, and the only way I am known here is by those very words.

I believe a certain amount of open-mindedness is healthy. And after all, this is just the internet- other people’s words have only the significance that we give them. In this sense, it is both the easiest thing and the hardest thing to consider what we see carefully without allowing it to affect us. Simple, because words here are not sticks and stones. *grin*

But hard, because to consider concepts that border on repugnant for us- I think we know the ones by now- requires that we accept the possibility that the person holding those views is not stupid, malicious, or some other form of very bad. In seeing the basic humanity of our opposites, it becomes more difficult to hold extremely strong opinions about them. This understanding can be rightly seen as a danger- if we first allow it to be.

That’s not to say there still aren’t things worth standing for. I don’t want to fall completely into the idea that there is *no* right and wrong, only situational ethics and other people’s opinions. The responsibility is, again, each of ours alone to decide what those things truly are.

By the definition I understand it, an open mind thinks. We all do some thinking on here, from time to time. *grin* We can still hold to our principles whatever they may be. They are made no less true by listening to an opposing viewpoint. Or by choosing not to investigate the whys and wherefores of those ideas, and moving on to something else instead. Either way, I believe it is best to keep my mind open enough so I keep my words light (for the most part), because I never know when I might have to eat them (or so the quote goes). *grin*
Last edited by Wootz; July 27,2010 at 7:33pm. Reason: I'd lk t by a vwl...
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #79  July 27,2010, 7:05pm
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Out of the park, Wootz. Thank you.
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #80  July 27,2010, 7:32pm
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Wootz wrote :
This has got me thinking, here. And rambling. And I'm just about exhausted, so it probably shows.

An open mind, to me, can explore and learn about something without yet accepting it. A *wise* mind, I would say, would weigh the truths, the information gathered, all the relevant details, and then make a decision. To me, all minds are open to a degree, insomuch as they are willing and able to take in information regardless of its relationship to what is known to them and accepted as true, morally right, and important- and all minds are closed to a degree, such that they have a point past which they do not wish to go. People will fall at different points on this continuum, depending on the subject at hand and the degree that they are willing to learn about it.

This is all in a general sense, mind you, and by my own language and definitions. *grin*

On the more “open” end of the scale, and what I commonly refer to when I say “open mind,” exhibits a quality of restraint. Self-restraint, necessarily, because we freedom loving individuals (not just Americans, mind you) don’t like too much intrusion into our daily lives. And because we are responsible for the things we do, we can look at the consequences of those actions, and learn from them.

To be open and also to show restraint, first one must think (the intransitive verb, in this case). Being *able* to think is not thinking, nor is reacting. It is at once the highest and most complicated level of learning- above basic memorization and association, it involves conceiving, inferring, and weighing the merits and follies of things. Most generalizations (which we’ve all seen examples of), absolute declarations, ultimatums, and suchlike seem formulaic to me. Simple syllogisms can disprove them (i.e. if a statement is predicated on “all” or “every,” then only one example need exist to invalidate the statement). Once disproved, the position can fall into doubt. Thus thinking ahead may restrain the impulse to make such a statement. And if one is open to the possibility that one can learn something new, even from people who may at first incite frustration, anger, or distaste, it can prevent such errors from occurring.

So far there have been several examples of tolerance and curiosity about cultures and ideas vastly different from ones I am familiar with. *grin* This is a good thing! Through learning, I haven’t seen one instance of an instant convert. Even the slight change in one’s own mind which may occur happens over time. The thing is, each of us must first allow it to happen. We have the responsibility to think through what ideas and attitudes we will change in ourselves, and consider the consequences.

It is all to easy to not think. I, myself, am very, very good at it. At least, I like to think so- I enjoy living in the moment, when I can. *grin* But the moment passes, and there are things that I really ought to think through first. Expanding my vocabulary of curse words when some bung-head driver cuts me off in traffic could become a habit, if I let it. And people will, rightly, I believe, judge me from my actions- and here on these boards, words are actions. Once they are said, once I click the submit button, my words are there to be seen by any who choose to read them, and the only way I am known here is for those very words.

I believe a certain amount of open-mindedness is healthy. And after all, this is just the internet- other people’s words have only the significance that we give them. In this sense, it is both the easiest thing and the hardest thing to consider what we see carefully without allowing it to affect us. Simple, because words here are not sticks and stones. *grin*

But hard, because to consider concepts that border on repugnant for us- I think we know the ones by now- requires that we accept the possibility that the person holding those views is not stupid, malicious, or some other form of very bad. In seeing the basic humanity of our opposites, it becomes more difficult to hold extremely strong opinions about them. This understanding can be rightly seen as a danger- if we first allow it to be.

That’s not to say there still aren’t things worth standing for. I don’t want to fall completely into the idea that there is *no* right and wrong, only situational ethics and other people’s opinions. The responsibility is, again, each of ours alone to decide what those things truly are.

By the definition I understand it, an open mind thinks. We all do some thinking on here, from time to time. *grin* We can still hold to our principles whatever they may be. They are made no less true by listening to an opposing viewpoint. Or by choosing not to investigate the whys and wherefores of those ideas, and moving on to something else instead. Either way, I believe it is best to keep my mind open enough so I keep my words light (for the most part), because I never know when I might have to eat them (or so the quote goes). *grin*
I bolded a couple of bits. I might come back later and bold more to respond to because there's a lot of thinking there!

But this part - it seems to point to the idea that being open-minded requires responsibility (that restraint and that thinking, in the intransitive sense) and an awareness of consequences.

So, if I think A is good, rather than just saying A is good and anyone who believes A is good (or smart or right or whatever), I have to consider that A might be good for me, but not necessarily good for someone else, who may lack the restraint, wisdom, or responsibility to engage in A.

So, part of being wise in being open-minded is in being conscious of how and to whom I promote A.

But if I think A is good and someone else things A is evil...well, that's a difference of opinion that may or may not be conducive to an open exchange of ideas, depending on the place on the line where we each fall in those beliefs and in our individual abilities to show restraint and responsibility. At the very least we should be able to *hear* one another. In the better cases we could not only listen, but accept the validity of each other's viewpoints on A. In the best cases, our differences in belief about A would not hinder our ability to view the other as not only human, but worthy of respect not necessarily for their position on A, but for their quality of restraint and responsibility regarding A.

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