littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #11  July 25,2010, 10:01pm
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DashMN wrote :
Open-mindedness is more than just acceptance of others who are different than ourselves. I think it also means not jumping to conclusions about people.
Yes. Assuming good intent is part of it. It's easy to dismiss or malign someone's POV simply because we assume we know the intent of their words or actions. We see that even in our community here - the quickness to dismiss someone as a nuisance because we assume that they are posting for one particular reason when we don't really know. Or the assumption that someone who disagrees with our POV or our presentation of it is attacking us personally.

It's a bit of a trial being human and allowing subjectivity to direct us at times when a bit of emotional distance might give us clearer vision. Thanks for your post.
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #12  July 25,2010, 10:04pm
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singinggirl wrote :
What a great topic, LBMM!

I moved from a small town of about 2000 people about 3 yrs ago to a metropolitan area. Since that time, I have come to realize how close-minded I was about many things. That realization has allowed me to open myself to new experiences and become more open-minded. It has also made me painfully aware of just how close-minded many members of my family are.

In my previous home, most of the people I knew (which was almost everyone) were just like me. Similar background, ethnicity, religious beliefs, political beliefs, even similar incomes. In my new home, I have made friends from other countries, friends who have very different religious beliefs, different lifestyles. I dated a man who had political beliefs that were almost exactly the opposite of mine. These new experiences have enriched my life in ways that I could never have imagined. I am so glad for the new experiences I've had. There are still things that I know I'm not open to, but isn't that true for all of us?

I think it is good and healthy to have friendships and relationships with people who are different and to be open-minded. It's amazing the things you can learn when you allow yourself to be open to possibilities. However, I think in a romantic relationship, there needs to be more 'likes' than 'differences'. As I said, I had a relatively serious relationship with a man who had extremely different political views than me. He is one of my best friends now, but we could never have managed a long-term romantic relationship.

I love that my boyfriend and I think similarly about many things, but I love, too, that we can disagree about some things without it breaking us. Still, at the end of the day, I want to know that the person that I could potentially spend the rest of my life with has similar views and beliefs as mine.
I'm guessing that going back to that small town might be a bit uncomfortable for you. That's a bit of the point I was getting at - that our own awareness can expand and make us close-minded to those who might not have had the same experiences...to the point where we may be likely to be disrespectful to the person because their POV is different.

I do agree that whatever differences there are with a partner, they have to be manageable to the extent that the differences aren't going to cause a breach in the relationship.
 
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chimerical is offline chimerical Post #13  July 25,2010, 10:07pm
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This led me to thinking about dating and how most people seem to want someone who is a mirror image of themselves...

Could you live with someone whose religious or spiritual beliefs were different from your own as long as basic values were shared? Would you be comfortable with someone who disagreed with you on politics or social issues? Can you listen to a difference in belief or philosophy that might, in your mind, trigger the thought, “That’s stupid.” and still treat the speaker with respect? Is there not some value in inviting people into your life who might not agree with you all the time even on major issues?

Do you value open-mindedness and are you open-minded enough to treat with value those who don’t or do you only respect those whose thinking aligns with your own?
Okay, I like this thread, and it's a great thought, but I've got to admit it kind of makes me feel defensive. Like you're saying someone can't call herself open-minded if she wants a partner who "mirrors" her on important issues, as if that indicates close-mindedness or narcissism.

I think sharing your life with a variety of people of all backgrounds is a great thing--so is tolerance and respect, and the ability to discuss a variety of issues without dismissing opposing viewpoints. However, when it comes down to my "soul mate" (and I don't even believe in that term!) I want someone with a similar heart and mind. And, since my political beliefs are strongly tied to my sense of justice and compassion, and my values of freedom and tolerance, my partner will need to share them, at least somewhat.

I don't know--I could share some stories about how open-minded I am, and about how diverse my friends are, etc., but this (dating preference) seems to be the core issue in your post. You're not really asking if we're open-minded towards our neighbors and co-workers; you're asking if we're "open-minded" towards our dates. (And I guess my defensiveness comes from blurring of the two issues: open-mindedness / respect towards people in general and open-mindedness / acceptance of anyone of any beliefs as your mate.)

Okay, end rant. Sorry! Just trying to clarify your thoughts. (And no offense meant towards anyone here--I don't mean to be negative... I know I'm feeling kind of defensive about this, so I hope it doesn't come off that way.)
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #14  July 25,2010, 10:14pm
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Wootz wrote :
Good question, and several great replies. Y'all are good people, and I'm glad to read these stories you've shared. *grin*

Me, I’m probably a bit more open-minded than I used to be. I once had a mind like a steel trap. Nothing got out, nothing got in, either. I knew it all, and the rest of the world could just go soak its head. *grin* I’m not the fairest mind you’ll find- I’ve got my faults! But I think I can say I’ve growed up a smidge from the know-it-all I used to be.

Nowadays, for those of you who know, I’m quite a bit more relaxed. I’ve got to be! *grin* Two of the hottest topics around, the most commonly polarizing issues (religion and politics) I am in a very small minority on. Perhaps a minority of one. *grin* Thus I don’t bring these things up.

As for issues of basic culture, moral code, and behavior- I have to say, I have my limits. There are definite and certain points past which I will not willingly go. But within that range, ahh, there is much room for variation! I try to see a person’s reasons for their actions, when I can, to better understand them.

Let me be clear, while actions do not exist in a moral vacuum and reasons do matter, they are not allowed to be used as excuses in my book. Reasons inform my understanding of a person. Reasons separate (in an extreme case) a justified defense from hedonistic violence. For both religious and political things, I try to look for what really drives a person. There exist many people who react based on the way they were raised and their close circle of friends rather than thoughtful reflection on both the immediate and far consequences of their actions.

I try to sift the worthy elements from the layers of rhetoric and glossed motives. There are people behind these labels we use: Republican, Democrat, Baptist, Methodist, atheist… Sometimes in talking to someone I might at first think “there’s nothing I could have in common with this person,” I discover how very wrong I was. This can be both a good and a bad thing.

It is good to recognize the basic humanity of each and every person around us. This makes hating harder. It should. The bad sometimes tempts me to gloss over an action which should not stand unopposed: I might begin making excuses for another person (a bad idea), because of perceived good intentions… Actually, I’ve done this before.

We are going to argue sometimes. That is human nature. Emotion tends to creep in when we least expect it- but it is well that it does. The thing I find best in this, is part of my perception of being open minded. How a person reacts to the difficulties life throws at us… That is a strong indication of character. I see some good people on this board. This pleases me. I’m kind of easy that way. *grin*
Those limits you talk about, Wootz, those are important. I think part of the key is not only knowing our own limits and sticking to them, but respecting the limits of others who might be different...either more or less liberal in both experience and values. The respect should be two-way, and often is, but one of the things I was also thinking about was some of my uber-liberal friends who are disturbingly close-minded to anything outside their own beliefs. For instance, when I re-visit the Northwest, I have several friends who are politically outspoken and not only completely intolertant of opposing views, but blatantly disrespectful of them. They seem to always be checking me for an advanced case of redneck when I see them. Sometimes I talk about guns and Walmart just to see what different colors they turn. I'm a bit naughty that way.

And we agree. Reasons matter, but they don't excuse behavior.

You never fail to make me look at things a bit differently, in a way that makes me think. I appreciate that.

And yes, we do have some very good people here.
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #15  July 25,2010, 10:20pm
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chimerical wrote :
Okay, I like this thread, and it's a great thought, but I've got to admit it kind of makes me feel defensive. Like you're saying someone can't call herself open-minded if she wants a partner who "mirrors" her on important issues, as if that indicates close-mindedness or narcissism.

I think sharing your life with a variety of people of all backgrounds is a great thing--so is tolerance and respect, and the ability to discuss a variety of issues without dismissing opposing viewpoints. However, when it comes down to my "soul mate" (and I don't even believe in that term!) I want someone with a similar heart and mind. And, since my political beliefs are strongly tied to my sense of justice and compassion, and my values of freedom and tolerance, my partner will need to share them, at least somewhat.

I don't know--I could share some stories about how open-minded I am, and about how diverse my friends are, etc., but this (dating preference) seems to be the core issue in your post. You're not really asking if we're open-minded towards our neighbors and co-workers; you're asking if we're "open-minded" towards our dates. (And I guess my defensiveness comes from blurring of the two issues: open-mindedness / respect towards people in general and open-mindedness / acceptance of anyone of any beliefs as your mate.)

Okay, end rant. Sorry! Just trying to clarify your thoughts. (And no offense meant towards anyone here--I don't mean to be negative... I know I'm feeling kind of defensive about this, so I hope it doesn't come off that way.)
Nah - it's all good. I'm not saying that everyone should accept anyone as a mate. I'm asking more how much of that might carry over. The open-mindedness isn't about tolerating anything in your life, either with friends or with lovers. It's more about how do you deal with differences. And it isn't my intent to say wanting someone who mirrors your beliefs is bad or narcissistic. Like I said, I'm just thinking out loud. I was more interested in hearing about open-mindedness in general and how people define it for themselves. Because even if you find someone who is exactly what you want, chances are he has a brother or a sister who's going to believe something that ticks you off.

And I've been known to meander in my thoughts. I'm inviting everyone else to do the same.
 
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chimerical is offline chimerical Post #16  July 25,2010, 10:32pm
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Nah - it's all good. I'm not saying that everyone should accept anyone as a mate. I'm asking more how much of that might carry over. The open-mindedness isn't about tolerating anything in your life, either with friends or with lovers. It's more about how do you deal with differences. And it isn't my intent to say wanting someone who mirrors your beliefs is bad or narcissistic. Like I said, I'm just thinking out loud. I was more interested in hearing about open-mindedness in general and how people define it for themselves. Because even if you find someone who is exactly what you want, chances are he has a brother or a sister who's going to believe something that ticks you off.

And I've been known to meander in my thoughts. I'm inviting everyone else to do the same.
Oh, ok. Well, that did clarify things, actually. To answer, "How do I deal with differences?" : If we're not talking a difference in core beliefs with a mate, then I love to talk about it. I adore a good, friendly debate. One of my best friends is black, gay, Southern, and Christian, and as I'm white, (mostly) straight, Northern, and atheist, we've had some fascinating discussions exploring (our own and each others') various beliefs. The last time we talked, another acquaintance (who is Jewish) made some remarks about Christianity. I started out agreeing with him, but by the end of the evening, was defending Christianity from him. It was very interesting. That's how I like to deal with differences in opinion/background. We talk about it at length, and no one gets offended (or tries to cause offense).

Also, on the point of "defining" open-mindedness... I definitely think that "good" open-mindedness is about being respectful and curious, and that "bad" open-mindedness can be complete moral relativism. So, just everything in moderation, I guess.
 
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morningsunlight is offline morningsunlight Post #17  July 26,2010, 4:51am
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chimerical wrote :
Personally, I feel like there is a difference between having friends/acquaintances with very different philosophies and having a mate with these different philosophies. I have friends across the spectrum (in terms of politics, religion, class, and culture), and I appreciate their different viewpoints and truly enjoy conversing with them. However, it does make life easier if your mate is like you in certain regards. (And they find that it therefore makes divorce less likely, as well.)

My politics and stances on social issues reflect my personal philosophy and values. Some politics can be set aside (especially if your mate is equally open-minded and respectful about differences in opinion), but some, to me, cannot.

And finally--in my first real relationship, I discovered that it was important to me to be able to speak my mind about something I'm passionate about and have the person closest to me back me up. When I feel outraged about something I see as a colossal injustice, it's frustrating to have my partner dismiss the incident as nothing. Arguing about the particulars of something is one thing; arguing about the heart of the matter is another.

I guess, to me, open-mindedness is important, but you can't be open-minded about everything. I'm not "open" to the idea of genocide, for instance, and I don't think that I should be. But I do, generally, still consider myself to be very open-minded.
Thank you for your great post. Very well said.

I find this topic thread extremely interesting and would like to thank OP, too.
 
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DashMN is offline DashMN Post #18  July 26,2010, 5:51am
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...our own awareness can expand and make us close-minded to those who might not have had the same experiences...
Yes, that. It reminds me of a line from a Judas Priest song, about how the elderly are dismissed. "And spare a thought as you pass him by, take a closer look and you'll say - he's our tomorrow, just as much as we are his yesterday." The same could well be said of our views. We all like to feel good about ourselves and where we're at in the growth and expansion of our views. Others may well be at a different point on the same path. Some will never find their way to the same place. But their experiences have made them what they are. Nobody gets to choose the circumstances of their life, at least not the first part of it. The opportunity exists for us to learn and grow from there, but we've all started in different places.

chimerical wrote :
I definitely think that "good" open-mindedness is about being respectful and curious,
And that too. Try to understand, rather than condemn or dismiss out of hand. Even the most hateful view has a reason behind it. A little understanding, and empathy, will go a long way to getting past the superficial basis, and down to the true core reason for the belief. Everyone just wants to be understood and accepted. Once we have that, we're all more willing to learn something new.
 
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DashMN is offline DashMN Post #19  July 26,2010, 6:24am
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Yes. Assuming good intent is part of it. It's easy to dismiss or malign someone's POV simply because we assume we know the intent of their words or actions. We see that even in our community here - the quickness to dismiss someone as a nuisance because we assume that they are posting for one particular reason when we don't really know. Or the assumption that someone who disagrees with our POV or our presentation of it is attacking us personally.

It's a bit of a trial being human and allowing subjectivity to direct us at times when a bit of emotional distance might give us clearer vision. Thanks for your post.
And what a slippery slope that can be. We really can't consider another judgmental, without also presuming to judge them ourselves. Nor can we criticize someone for looking down their nose at others, without also looking down our nose at them.
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #20  July 26,2010, 6:48am
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DashMN wrote :
And what a slippery slope that can be. We really can't consider another judgmental, without also presuming to judge them ourselves. Nor can we criticize someone for looking down their nose at others, without also looking down our nose at them.
Okay, my meandering this time is squarely on you, because your excellent post led my mind in another (but related) direction.

I think judging has gotten a bad rap to some extent. I think at some point we crossed the line from condemning truly unwarranted judgmental POVs (all women are unsuitable for the workplace and therefore should be relegated to low-paying service jobs...all men will cheat if given the chance) into also condemning having good judgment. And I think that's tied into open-mindedness and the other excellent posts that were made.

I can continue to exercise good judgment (who I want to associate with, when and how I speak out on issues) without it necessarily being judgmental. I can exclude things from my life that are offensive to me without it necessarily being judgmental. I can even speak out or share my perspective on those things as long as I'm clear that it's my perspective or opinion...not a universal truth. Unless it is a universal truth, of course, but there are precious few of those.

It's kind of like Chimerical's post expressing that she felt a bit defensive because she wondered if I was saying that people aren't open-minded if they only choose partners who mirror their beliefs. If I'd actually been saying that, it would have revealed me as not being too open-minded, eh?
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