Gender "expectations" - Good? Bad? Obsolete?


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TheWanderer is offline TheWanderer Post #1  November 12,2009, 8:24pm
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I don't want to call them "gender roles" because that usually falls along the lines of "the woman is supposed to raise the kids, the man is supposed to make the money..." Not what I'm talking about. And I don't want to call them "gender stereotypes" because that generally focuses on the negative. Also, not what I'm talking about.

So let's call them gender expectations. The man being strong, handy with tools, able to reach the top shelf. The woman being caring, emotionally in tune, an underrated cook. And let's talk about how those seem to be less and less of a valid expectation.

On any dating message board, there's going to be a good crop of "nice guy" threads from men who seem to be able to relate well to women, don't grouse about shopping or listening to her complaints, re: her coworkers. Guys who seem like a product of the "80s Man," the "Sensitive Man," and who are finding themselves short on dating luck. Or the reaction to this, with the thread asking where the "real men" are, or the personal ad requesting "a MAN, not a BOY."

This got me thinking about the inverse of that, which doesn't get a lot of press - the Cowgirl. She probably drives a 2005 Mustang. She can ski or snowboard; maybe even a black diamond. She can throw on some boots, skip the makeup, and hike a 14er without worrying about her safety or her nails. Or she might be less outdoorsy and more of a New York business shark in a sharp suit (say that one three times fast!). These are women who are strong, smart, independent, and some of my best friends. I applaud them for it all.

...but I can't find myself really attracted to them. Uh-oh, right? Now I don't mean that my woman needs to get her bare feet into the kitchen and make me a sammich, or that I'll reject any woman that dares display any of these traits... it's more that the more a girl tries to be "one of the guys" the better friend she makes, but the less I find myself attracted to her. I imagine it's the same for women and their "good guy friends." I can't figure out why. I can laugh with a girl who swills beer, farts, and giggles about it, but I can't feel romantically comfortable with them. I don't want a girlfriend with a favorite football team, who's ready and willing to take an argument over them to blows.

Anyway, that's my own experience as an example. So am I the only one? Are these "gender expectations" still around for a reason, or is it antiquated thinking? Is this a product of men being raised by their mothers and women by their fathers? Or maybe we've simply tried to increase our dating success by remaking ourselves in the image of who we want to attract? ("If I'm emotionally sensitive, she'll open up to me!" "He loves to watch baseball, so if I have a favorite baseball team too, then we can enjoy baseball together!")
 
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Spider is offline Spider Post #2  November 13,2009, 4:29am
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I think it's more an effect of people not feeling that they have to pretend to meet the old expectations. Lots of girls I was friends with as a child were better at repairing bikes or catching fly balls than their brothers, but they had to stifle that when they entered their teens in order to be "young ladies."

People are freer to be themselves now.
 
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ami1uwant is offline ami1uwant Post #3  November 13,2009, 8:48am
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If I am understanding you. You dont mind if she works....she can be a nurse, or waitress, but she cant be your boss? She is not allowed to like sports unless you are the one telling her your warped perspective? (love to see you in a debate on sports with my sister-in-law). You want to be the boss around the house --dare she actually have her own opinion and say what she feels?

If I am wrong please tell me?
 
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Lilycat is offline Lilycat Post #4  November 13,2009, 9:43am
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Laughing here - sorry. I am playing the How Old Are You card again here - look you might just need to grow up a bit here, the type of woman (and I am a woman, and that kind of gal)you describe - well, IMHO they are the good ones......

If you are looking for a partner in life, they are the people to give a serious look at. They are not dead weights, they are serious participants.

The piece you might be missing here, is that they are not probably trying to be "one of the guys" as you so quaintly put it, but are just being themselves.

Are you sure that your "non-attraction" here just might be that you are a little intimidated by them? Or that they feel like competition? Think on that for a while.....

And the sensitive man, well any one of those that I have met who is putting it on as an act, the only thing he is ever really sensitive to are his own needs lol.

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Sassafras54 is offline Sassafras54 — Advice Official Moderator Post #5  November 13,2009, 9:53am
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I predict someday you will be swept off your feet by a beer-swilling, farting fabulous woman who can hold her own arguing football. Hah!

I will find that man who can survive occasionally looking incompetent, getting tears in his eyes, who can't resist a good kitten. Hah!
 
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scarlet13 is offline scarlet13 Post #6  November 13,2009, 10:22am

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Noone can resist a good kitten.
 
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TheWanderer is offline TheWanderer Post #7  November 13,2009, 11:27am
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This isn't supposed to be a discussion about me, I'm just using my own experience as examples. It's supposed to be a discussion about the trend. And if "one of the guys" is for men what "nice guy" is for women.

But for the first two responses, yes, you've misunderstood me significantly.
 
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dnnmllr is offline dnnmllr Post #8  November 13,2009, 12:09pm
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I do not know @ "gender expectations" however I am very interested in knowing the (not so obvious) differences between men and women because this helps me to come from a place of "understanding" and thus will ultimately improve my relationships.

Example: (Note: This information comes from books I have read and I believe what I am sighting here to be true).....

.....In the workplace a man has to earn the respect of other men.....so women need to work "twice" as hard at this same accomplishment (Although not fair this is how it is).

Anyway, men use words for "power" whereas women use words to "connect". If a women in a higher authoritative position were to "ask" others what they may think about her "plans to improve a project".....a man may (wrongly) think to himself, "Is she really competent to be leading this team"?.....because this "wrong thinking man" does not recognize that woman use words to connect and she is asking "others" so others feel "included" in these "plans".

Socially, sometime ago, I recall turning down the "advances" of a man. He responded by verbally saying terrible things. The person sitting next to me (who witnessed this verbal abuse) told me that the man I turned down felt rejected and so became angry and verbally abusive. It had nothing to do with me or how I graciously handled "turning him down". The person who gave me this "insight".....was a man....and I am thankful to the "good" man for helping me "understand" the man with the "bad" behavior.

I wish you well.
Last edited by dnnmllr; November 13,2009 at 12:36pm.
 
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trackstar is offline trackstar Post #9  November 13,2009, 12:11pm
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Ha. I don't think there's anything wrong with not being attracted to women who are, ahem, un-ladylike. . . I know this girl, well a married woman, who yells and swears at football (but really doesn't understand what is going on), pretends she drinks a lot and tries to tell you about it constantly, and frequently belches loudly. . .she annoys the heck out of me and the majority of the male population, including her husband. But, I don't dislike her because of gender expectations. . .I wouldn't like a guy who acted like her either. It's probably hard for you to imagine the yelling, swearing, farting, beer-guzzling, thrill-seeking girl being a gentle, nurturing wife and mother, just like it would be hard for me to imagine such a man being a good father.

Aside from her though, I think (or hope) that most people are a whole lot more multi-dimensional than you're conceding. A woman can be a smart, successful business woman, who genuinely loves hiking, beer, and baseball, but also loves cooking, wants nothing more than she wants to be a good wife and mother, and still respects men (but only when they deserve it).
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #10  November 13,2009, 8:16pm
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Definitely obsolete.

Sure, roles make things simpler, but they also put limits on people...not just the people who are in those roles but the people in their lives.

Here's an offbeat example. I used to know a guy, a welder. Had a successful business doing the usual guy projects welding for the local farmers and truckers and builders. But he was also an artist. Showed up once at a gallery opening wearing one of his wife's black camisoles over a pair of work jeans and boots. His fingernails were painted four different shades of pink. I asked him about the nails. He said his three daughters decided to make him "pretty" for his night out. I thought this was sweet and I felt bold enough to ask about the camisole. He got this incredibly loving look on his face and said "I wore this for my wife." And you know what? I bet they both got lucky later that night since they spent the entire evening flirting with one another through the crowd. That was a man who was entirely comfortable in his (admittedly offbeat) skin.

Sure, you can take the safe route and color inside the lines but all the really interesting people know the difference between rules and guidelines and they don't let the guidelines limit them.

And no one was really happier when things were supposedly simpler anyway.
 
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