D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #101  November 5,2009, 2:56pm
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sqg123 wrote :
DL are you arguing that you shouldn't have to pay child support?

As a generalized answer, yes. (Jumping back in not having read the recent pages.)

I think financial obligation to children is strictly proportional to possession. If I have 100% possession, I have 100% of the obligation; if I have 0% possession, then I have 0% obligation. Anything other is unjust.

Also, I do not agree that housing is “child support.” Nor are expense elements which may have been affordable under a two-income family, but are no longer affordable under a one-income household, such as the luxurious recreational activities and consumer purchases cited in some posts – things I can not even afford for myself, as a single person, I should certainly not be obligated to pay to a non-resident child.

Women receiving “child support” ought not be permitted replacement male companionship without foregoing the funding. (Agreed, this is impractical to enforce.)

My basic set of ethics is that the standard of living which attaches to my work ethic belongs to me, and to no one else, for any reason.

***

I get that people have strong contrary opinions, and at the end of the day all I can do is avoid liability to these unjust laws by avoiding having children.
 
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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #102  November 5,2009, 3:07pm
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peg099 wrote :
It takes two people to have a child. Both should continue to share in the responsibilities of raising that child. Why punish the kids because your romantic relationship didn't last?

You quotes Saul, but this is not responding to his issue.

In any case, two adults who seperate into two houses will have far higher housing expense. Therefore there will be less money for everything else.

There is no possible rebuttal to that fact.
 
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neardc is offline neardc Post #103  November 5,2009, 3:14pm
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Can_I_just_be_Jo wrote :
I am interested in knowing what the guidelines say about current members creating new IDs to attack other members while preserving their "good" name.
If you believe that the content of a post violates the Community Standards, you are encouraged to click on the "report post" button at the bottom of the post (much better than lashing out in response on the boards). If you believe that a poster has multiple identities, you can include that information; however, I see nothing in the guidelines per se that prohibits having more than one username. Creating a new account for the specific purpose of attacking another community member, however, would of course violate Community Standards.

If you have additional questions about how the site operates or how moderation is enforced, please make a post in the "Talk to Your Community Team" group.
 
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Can_I_just_be_Jo is offline Can_I_just_be_Jo Post #104  November 5,2009, 3:19pm

blames self-help books

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neardc wrote :
If you believe that the content of a post violates the Community Standards, you are encouraged to click on the "report post" button at the bottom of the post (much better than lashing out in response on the boards). If you believe that a poster has multiple identities, you can include that information; however, I see nothing in the guidelines per se that prohibits having more than one username. Creating a new account for the specific purpose of attacking another community member, however, would of course violate Community Standards.

If you have additional questions about how the site operates or how moderation is enforced, please make a post in the "Talk to Your Community Team" group.
I did report the post and included all information.

Thank you for the information.
 
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cardguy is offline cardguy Post #105  November 5,2009, 3:28pm
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DLion, your post only makes sense if you assume the parents have no inherent obligation to their children. On what basis could you possibly make such a claim? Bringing a person into the world is a very serious matter, and the idea that you shouldn't be responsible for your decisions is quite frankly bizarre. Raising a child costs money. In deciding to have a child, you are agreeing to provide for that child, financially so is just a part of that. There's nothing unjust about that, just as there's nothing unjust about having to make payments on a car you signed a contract for even if you decide later that you don't like the car (or the contract). Essentially your argument comes down to "it's not fair that I have financial obligations that I can't walk away from at any time".

Even spousal payments can make a lot of sense in your strict contract-based world. A marriage is intended to be a for-life arrangement. One of the benefits of such an arrangement is that it allows for both partners to coordinate their actions in a way that wouldn't be possible or desirable if each was acting individually. One common example of this is that one spouse gives up some or all of their current and/or future earning potential in or to provide non-monetary benefits to the household. One partner is willing to bring these non-financial assets to the table with the understanding that the other partner will instead contribute more on the financial side of things. Thus, the situation of the couple is optimized locally, not globally.

If that arrangement is violated, then one partner is harmed financially, as they were willing to take reduction of personal financial status in order to achieve a more desirable overall situation for the couple. Since this "contract" has been violated, compensation is made to offset the personal financial loss incurred by one partner by agreeing to the arrangement.

In summary, I would suggest that if you cannot think of an arrangement between two people in terms of pooling resources in pursuit of a common goal, knowing that neither partner will contribute exactly 50% on all dimensions, then marriage probably isn't a desirable arrangement for you anyway. "Keeping score" on every detail is a recipe for failure in a relationship imo.
Last edited by cardguy; November 5,2009 at 3:37pm.
 
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cardguy is offline cardguy Post #106  November 5,2009, 3:31pm
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D_Lion wrote :
In any case, two adults who seperate into two houses will have far higher housing expense. Therefore there will be less money for everything else.

There is no possible rebuttal to that fact.
Yes, and? The fact that it's more expensive for you and your partner to live apart doesn't free you from financial obligation to your children. Yes, both partners will have a lower standard of living apart than together....so? That's not unjust, just cause and effect.
 
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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #107  November 5,2009, 3:45pm
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Your post is missing many facts:

I (hypothetically) decided to have a child given the existence of a healthy, intact marriage to a woman with the necessary resources to make funding a child viable. (I concede not every situation fits this parameter, but mine would have.) In the event that my wife decided to abandon her commitment, I am deprived of the essential resource for supporting a child. This is an inarguable fact. Further, to have to give income to her at that point is never ethically justified.

Regarding your corollary to contracts, this is why there are bankruptcy laws and force majure provisions in contracts: in recognition to the fact that circumstances change in a way that parties to a contract are unable to fulfill obligations which they agreed to under a no-longer-existing reality.

Your personal acceptance of non-contributing wives is not a choice I would make personally, concordantly I do not have to personally state on my feelings to that choice. To answer, I consider departing the labor market a Faustian bargain, which I would not make nor accept in my life.

In any case, that is not germane to a situation in which the wife was unfaithful, abandoned the husband, was an unfit parent, failed to perform the domestic duty she bargained for, etc. Yet these wives still claim and receive subsidy.

***

I accept your argument that marriage is ill-advised. I do not consider the (numerous) posts of this kind personally; I consider them confirmation.
 
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chawks64 is offline chawks64 Post #108  November 5,2009, 3:54pm
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This is just horrible.

Alimony? You can keep it. I should have to take care of myself, and if I didn't prepare for that, it's my own fault.

Child support? Completely different issue. You BOTH decided to have children and you BOTH agreed to take care of them (emotionally and financially), so you BOTH SHOULD! It really is that simple!

Yes, there are some women out there who take outrageous amounts of money from their exes to finance their Mercedes and a house overlooking the ocean, and those that don't allow a father to see their kids, and that's just wrong. But my experience in talking with a lot of single parents is that the expenses involved in raising the child/children is usually far more than the amount contributed by the non-custodial parent plus an equal amount assumed to be contributed by the custodial parent. Kids are expensive, and whatever is not covered by the budgeted amount set by the court just gets paid for by the custodial parent because it has to be paid. The non-custodial parent pays a certain amount each month. The custodial parent pays whatever needs to be paid that month, no matter how much it is.

The majority of women are not the ones making the headlines, and if the one you married is that evil, you're the one that chose her. I take complete responsibility for marrying a jerk myself. But that doesn't mean I assume every guy I meet is an alcoholic control freak like he was. Same thing with the women. And the stories you hear from other men just reinforce the stereotype, but do you really think men are going to sit around a bar and tell stories about how NICE their ex wife is? Not likely.

Seriously, what do we have to do for you guys to see that this is not the norm???
 
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D_Lion is offline D_Lion Post #109  November 5,2009, 3:57pm
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Change the law!
 
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cp30 is offline cp30 Post #110  November 5,2009, 4:00pm

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D_Lion wrote :
Good post and good point.

It is fair to make an initial impression on probability until better data is available. That is sound reasoning, and essential.

However, when better data comes in, one needs to replace the older, lower-quality, data with the new data.
really? that sure sounds like baggage to me.

I haven't read all the posts but I suspect I'm not the first to think so...
 
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