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nightling nightling is offline
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tweet37 wrote :
Oh...they still happen. And I don't think it's as uncommon as some want to believe.

And it's risky. For the reasons cited and due to the proximity of the two involved when the relationship ends.
It's not at all uncommon. In fact, I read in some news article a couple weeks ago that a large percentage of people these days are saying they met their significant others in a work setting. Sorry don't have the statistic handy or I'd post it, I just remember that it's becoming more not less common.

It's only a real problem if like bigfin said you are obnoxious about it and pushy and don't take no for answer, or get all in a huff if the girl says no. Or, if you are the boss asking out someone in your department. That's a definite no-no.

And sometimes even when it's against the rules, people do it anyway. They are just discreet about it and don't tell anyone.
Last edited by nightling; November 18th, 2009 at 10:19 pm.
- November 18th, 2009, 10:17 pm
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bigfincat bigfincat is offline
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oh... I am watching a perfect example of quality workplace flirting!!

I am watching The Office & I really don't think that the Jim & Pam relationship at work is far-fetched or unusual. Any fans out there?? LOL

I have had that type of relationship myself... & the flirting was daily.

I work with plenty of women & it is easy to tell which ones like to flirt & which ones don't. Most do.

Most women that I know are not that sensitive. Most are even thick skinned. Most even have a sense of humor.
- November 18th, 2009, 10:27 pm
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melman melman is offline
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I knew it! You're getting your ideas about the workplace from "The Office". Which really went off the deep end when all the plot lines became like a badly written soap opera with everyone dating everyone else, or wanting to. Most of the characters would have been fired from a real-life workplace long ago.

Standard management training in most companies includes recognizing and reporting flirting in the workplace, because it can lead to harassment claims and companies desperately want to avoid that.
- November 18th, 2009, 10:39 pm
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HappyandLight HappyandLight is offline
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So true. Men who say this...I think they are not realizing the truth.

Sure, maybe you would like a woman to do all the initiating but do you like her as much as the ones who don't?

Only women know the answer to that!

I do *help* in the process a lot. I initiate in my own way. I make it clear that I am interested by answering the phone, being welcoming, showing some enthusiasm, being positive, smiling and flirting. Now in my relationship I show interest in planning dates, parties, events, helping out at his house, etc. I give a lot back.

scarlet13 wrote :
I'm not waiting. but then again, men these days make all kinds of judgements if you do initiate, so I can't believe all these complainers *really* want a woman to initiate.

they are just bitter about being rejected all the time, is my guess.

*shrug
- November 18th, 2009, 10:46 pm
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bigfincat bigfincat is offline
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melman wrote :
I knew it! You're getting your ideas about the workplace from "The Office". Which really went off the deep end when all the plot lines became like a badly written soap opera with everyone dating everyone else, or wanting to. Most of the characters would have been fired from a real-life workplace long ago.

Standard management training in most companies includes recognizing and reporting flirting in the workplace, because it can lead to harassment claims and companies desperately want to avoid that.
Pretty much all of the relationships on The Office are out of line... but not the Jim/Pam one. Sorry, but that is a perfect example of 2 people having fun while at work. People do have such fun at work.

Just the fact that you write of the "Standard Management Training" makes me think that you are a "fall in line" kind of guy. That is far less common than you think.

The next thing that you are going to tell me is that the UPS delivery guy doesn't flirt with some on his route or that no ladies flirt back.

Many people do things like that especially those in dreadfully boring offices.
- November 18th, 2009, 10:56 pm
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HappyandLight HappyandLight is offline
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Melman

Sure, they have success with a date. They are not rejected on the spot.

But that isn't the point.

The point is, when a woman initiates it becomes a precedent in the relationship...even if the woman does not want it to! If a woman takes the first risk, she kind of becomes the masculine energy from there on in the relationship and it becomes very un fulfilling and unhappy for the women. They never know if they are really loved or cared for or wanted or if they are just a convenience.

Many men will go out with women who ask them out but do they stay with them? Do they cherish them as much? Do they commit to them? Do they have just as much passion for them?

Many women have found that when they become the initiator, the passion, interest, cherishing, respect, and commitment levels all suffer.

That is why we hesitate. Because experience has taught us how (most) men are and the results of our asking them out first. It has to do with male and female energies and no matter how much others deny this, they are real.

Me, the rejection I can handle. I also play a long in the dating game to make the man feel welcomed and warmly receive him but I won't become the initiator because it usually leads to disappointment.

Does that answer?

melman wrote :
I am a few years older than you. And I grew up in a relatively conservative small town. It was quite common for girls to ask guys out.

I'm sure you can still find people who even today believe that women should not initiate. But I think if you honestly look back to your youth and college years, you'll remember plenty of women who initiated a date or whatever, with no repercussions at all.
- November 18th, 2009, 11:01 pm
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bigfincat bigfincat is offline
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Some men like a challenge. I think that those men do not know what they really want because if they did they would not care if it fell off of a truck & landed in their yard.

Guys that are put off by a woman initiating are more likely to like the game than the result of it.

Personally, I do not value something simply because it was harder to get.

I value something if I like it. It is pretty simple.
- November 18th, 2009, 11:01 pm
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HappyandLight HappyandLight is offline
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ming_on_mongo wrote :

I am another 40+ year old woman who feels the same as peg and the others.

Perhaps already mentioned, let's not forget that alot of how "hard and fast" the "role expectations" are, is going to vary tremendously, depending on the local values & culture. For example, I would presume that folks in many parts of the midwest or perhaps rural Canada, are probably going to be much more "conservative" in their expectations of what's "proper for a woman", than say, in California!

I live in CA. In fact, I live in an urban area of CA and we all know that means pretty liberal...and it is. And not only that, the crowd I socialize with tends to be more "liberal". Even more so, I didn't grow up with any heavy rules for relating to men. In fact, I got nothing in that department.

Having said that, I have found...that no matter how liberal the men are or where you are living, MEN ARE MEN, even if they don't realize it themselves. Masculine men are still moved in the same ways, no matter where they live or or how "liberal" they are. They may *say* they want things to be equal or this and that but when the chips are down, they are still acting on deeper instincts.

I'll give some examples in my own life. In college I fell in love with this wonderful boy. I didn't know about boundaries to how to date appropriately. I went too fast and all of the sudden, this very liberal type boy, said "I am sorry I lost interest". He couldn't help it himself...I am sure he didn't realize what happened...but I know. I didn't date him in the right way, keeping some mystery, sleeping with him too soon, etc etc.

Another time when I was a younger adult I had a crush on a bartender. I remember going to the bar with a gf to flirt with him. You know what he assumed? He assumed I wanted sex only.

I have been protected, cherished, loved, adored and the object of tender passion. I've also been ignored, unappreciated, unnoticed and looked upon like a sex object only. Guess which relationship I felt the first four feelings? Relationships where I allowed the boy/man to lead, at least in the beginning.

Whatever it is...masculine energy/feminine energy...there is a great deal of truth in this and most of us have little clue on what motivates us to pursue, say "yes" to a love interest.

And related to your observation re: "egalitarian" women, my own sense is that a woman's "rejection" is often related to her own basic attitudes and the type of guys that she's attracted to, to the point that outcomes are often self-fulfilling. If she's basically conservative in her values, and presumably attracted to more "conservative" men, that's obviously a more "risky" proposition for "female initiators", than maybe approaching some other types of guys.
UUUU
- November 18th, 2009, 11:36 pm
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jsbach jsbach is offline
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bigfincat wrote :
Some men like a challenge. I think that those men do not know what they really want because if they did they would not care if it fell off of a truck & landed in their yard.

Guys that are put off by a woman initiating are more likely to like the game than the result of it.

Personally, I do not value something simply because it was harder to get.

I value something if I like it. It is pretty simple.

This has to be one of the coolest posts I've ever read !

I read this yesterday and thought about it last night. Then again today I found myself pondering what bfcat said here.

This post is pure wisdom.
- November 19th, 2009, 04:52 pm
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FLA123 FLA123 is offline
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I really enjoyed your comments about independent women, because I am one. I have bought my own home, gotten my degree, written books, given advice, raised my son, moved 1,200 miles from home and am a good investor that does not follow the crowd in anything in life. My parents who had 9 children taught me to be an independent thinker. I have been worried that I would not be able to meet a man that can appreciate what I have accomplished and not feel insecurity. This has been encouraging. Thanks for the input.
- November 22nd, 2009, 05:32 pm
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