Counselling, paying someone to hear your story of woe? or truly helpful?


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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #41  January 14,2009, 6:54am
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graceventually,430706 wrote :




"And I would no more trust "Joe" next door with my car than I would burden a friend with my more serious counseling issues."


Well said, LBMM!!

I just don't want to be responsible for their nightmares.


Nice new pic, Grace! Happiness!
 
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graceventually is offline graceventually Post #42  January 14,2009, 4:43pm
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Thanks, LBMM. For the record, and more to the topic of this thread, he (and I) have each come from fairly awful marriages - he more recently than I - and I doubt we'd be in the happy. loving relationshipwhere we are without the counseling each of us received once upon a time.
 
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vlnman is offline vlnman Post #43  January 14,2009, 7:54pm
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graceventually,430706 wrote :





"And I would no more trust "Joe" next door with my car than I would burden a friend with my more serious counseling issues."


Well said, LBMM!!





This is an interesting bit ofpsychology around perception in action....seems my friend Joe is taking quite a beating.


The only data in my talewas this - his first name is Joe, he rebuilds engines, he owns tools, he charges less than others for the same work, he makes mistakes, he lives next door. Sobetter tolook the other way when Joe steps outside?...don't trust him...he stays inside a lot...he might be a child molester... or worse


So I've met a few real life Joes ... you'll find him next door, in the nursing home down the road, in the soup kitchen, under a bridge on a cold night, I even met Joe in Houston one night...he slept on the sidewalk by my hotel, I started bringing him coffee wheneverI stayed there. Joe's clothes smelled a bit like wet dirt, he really needed a shave. One day I bought Joe lunch and we sat and talked in length. I gave Joe my business card andwrote a brief note on the back of it. Joe was gone my last trip that way, I asked about him, seems he finally went home, he's where he can rest now. I think it's great that folks find their answers with professional counsellors, I really do. For me though I've just never needed one...Ilook for Joe. I never did find out Houston Joe's real name. On the flight back home I realized it wasn't just me and Joe in that lunch conversation
 
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Lindac7 is online now Lindac7 Post #44  January 14,2009, 10:24pm
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Freud wasn't a fraud - he just mistakenly concluded that most 'problems' people have are sexually related. There's more to it than that, but that's most of it in a nutshell.


Most psychological educators now will cover Freud's theories and findings, but tend to prefer the theories and findings of Jung, Skinner, and other psychoanalysts who came after Freud. Some refer to Freud as the father of psychology; I prefer to think of him as laying one of the first foundational blocks that have been built on by others after him. Some of Freud's theories do apply to some people. It helps if the counselor involved is trained in all methodologies, so they know which one will work best for their client.


When seeking counseling for yourself, it helps if you know what you're going to counseling for. It's OK to not know, but you do need to do some homework and be able to give the therapist some feelings, thoughts and ideas you've had about the 'problem' so they can help you get to the bottom of it and get the healing you need.


It's pointless to go to a counselor if you're not willing to be brutally honest with yourself about your part in the 'problem'. I don't believe in wasting my time and money spending an entire hour or longer simply giving the counselor information about the problem so they can then start the healing process. I believe in writing everything down and giving it to the counselor before the first session so they already have all the 'background information',so the first session can start the healing process. At their hourly rates, it's well worth the effort to take care of this ahead of time. In addition, taking the time to write it all down is cathartic in itself, and can help you see the problem more clearly, and/or how severe it is.


I feel sorry for some counselors who have to patiently and carefully work hard to get their clients to open up and give them the information they need so they can do their jobs.
 
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neardc is offline neardc Post #45  January 15,2009, 5:30am
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vinman - what in the world does your story of meeting "Joes" under bridges have to do with wanting to engage highly and professionally trained people to perform complicated tasks?For what reason did you bring up child molesters in this context?


You seem to be unwilling to understand that therapy is complex and requires trained skills. It's fine that you don't need it; certainly not everyone does. However, for those who do, they are not going to find the help they need by talking with the destitute and mentally ill. To perpetuate the myth that it's the same as "talking to a friend" is to sentence some people to a lifetime of misery and despair.


Lindac7 wrote :
I feel sorry for some counselors who have to patiently and carefully work hard to get their clients to open up and give them the information they need so they can do their jobs.

They are used to that! There is a big difference between the "worried well" (those who are basically fine, but are looking for help in understanding their lives, solving a short-term problem, etc.) and people with significant mental illness who need a lot more help to achieve success in therapy. Not all therapists have the training and experience to deal effectively with someone with more serious problems, of course, and that's one reason that it's important to look at background when seeking a good match.
 
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littlebluemonkeymind is offline littlebluemonkeymind Post #46  January 15,2009, 8:01am
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vlnman,432088 wrote :

This is an interesting bit ofpsychology around perception in action....seems my friend Joe is taking quite a beating.


The only data in my talewas this - his first name is Joe, he rebuilds engines, he owns tools, he charges less than others for the same work, he makes mistakes, he lives next door. Sobetter tolook the other way when Joe steps outside?...don't trust him...he stays inside a lot...he might be a child molester... or worse
The implication I got was that you were advocating back-yard mechanics over professionals. That's all.


It isn't that those folks aren't to be trusted. It's more about what your expectations are and can reasonably be. If I want professional work, I go to a professional.
 
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vlnman is offline vlnman Post #47  January 15,2009, 8:08pm
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neardc,432442 wrote :

vinman - what in the world does your story of meeting "Joes" under bridges have to do with wanting to engage highly and professionally trained people to perform complicated tasks?For what reason did you bring up child molesters in this context?


You seem to be unwilling to understand that therapy is complex and requires trained skills. It's fine that you don't need it; certainly not everyone does. However, for those who do, they are not going to find the help they need by talking with the destitute and mentally ill. To perpetuate the myth that it's the same as "talking to a friend" is to sentence some people to a lifetime of misery and despair.


Lindac7 wrote :
I feel sorry for some counselors who have to patiently and carefully work hard to get their clients to open up and give them the information they need so they can do their jobs.

They are used to that! There is a big difference between the "worried well" (those who are basically fine, but are looking for help in understanding their lives, solving a short-term problem, etc.) and people with significant mental illness who need a lot more help to achieve success in therapy. Not all therapists have the training and experience to deal effectively with someone with more serious problems, of course, and that's one reason that it's important to look at background when seeking a good match.
Well the original post concerned a young man who spent a lot of time and money getting nowhere. Other comments noted going from one therapist to another, searching to try and find just the right one. I've had that same conversation with several people so I found it interesting. My comments were neither for nor against forms of therapy, rather I was pointing out that we need to get back to caring about each other as human beings. I think I'd have a rather strong argument in pointing out that the human race has survived more than a few crisis of epic proportions over thousands of years all by themselves.


So in my story Joe is the guy you trust to unload your troubles on, it's no different than finding a counselor after the tenth try....it's not magic or genius...you trust that person and confide in them...and paying them is ok. Now what I thought interesting was that out of that there were a couple comments about not at all trusting Joe. Somehow Joe became untrustworthy out of thin air....we read things into situations that really aren't there. I did not reveal whether Joe was a backyard mechanic or once part of Dale Earnhardt's pit crew....so I used an extreme example of how weconjure things up....goodor bad....I could have used the term axe murderer, chicken thief...whatever....it's just a phrase to emphasize the point.It's like drawing the conclusion that someone who is homeless or lives under a bridge is mentally ill. Why....what makes you think that....why would you link poverty to mental illness?


As a musician I could note that performing music requires a high degree of skill, coordination, and years of training...interpretation is a highly complexfunction of mental and emotional activity.That is both true and false. I know acouple amazingjazz musicians that can't read a single note...I played with an incrediblegypsy violinist once that had never taken a lesson in his life. I know a couple highly trained musicians that play with the emotion of a dead cat.


I'll have to respectfully disagree that a degree on the wall makes you specifically capable of helping others during times of deep emotional and mental trouble. Sometimesof coursethat is certainly true. But sometimes the best cure is something that no training, education, or degree can prepare you for....it comes from somewhere deep inside. It's called love....the type you give unconditionally toa friendin need. And there are in fact many people out there desparately searching for that friend...you may have never met them but they are far from mythical
 
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neardc is offline neardc Post #48  January 16,2009, 3:18am
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By your argument that the human race has survived epic crises for thousands of years, one could also say that we should not bother to avail ourselves of penicillin or keep a clean water supply or whatever. Yes; people have survived. But, why not take advantage of technologies (including human technologies) that allow us to have happier and longer lives? Why suffer when continuing suffering is unnecessary or it can be abated? Before therapies and medications were available to help many of the people who are now being helped, they simply suffered -- no matter how many "Joes" were out there to talk to.


Love is a wonderful thing, but it is not a cure all. It is not magic. As I said before, everyone needs friends and someone to talk to. That kind of social support is invaluable and is protective against many problems. However, having a Joe to unload your troubles on is not going to solve the problems of someone who needs the professional expertise of a trained therapist. Training in this arena does matter, just as it does for a physician (is talking with "Joe" going to remove your appendix or brain tumor?) or an engineer (do you want Joe designing the bridges you drive over or the high rise building you work in?) or other professions that require high levels of training.


Nobody was assuming anything about Joe's personal attributes other than the fact that he does not have professional training/credentialing/certification in the area where expertise is being sought. So, you are projecting that people are assuming negative personal characteristics; they are not. In your example, if Joe the neighbor was a former member of Earnhardt's pit crew, he would in fact have all of the credentials and qualifications required -- he would be a trained professional, making your point about "Joes" vs. professionals moot.


BTW, I have talked in great depth with hundreds of people who are homeless and am quite familiar with the range of people who are homeless and how and why they became homeless. For many, it is the sort of life circumstances that any of us might encounter with bad luck or a poor support system. However, it is also the case that there are higher levels of mental illness among this population overall, and the chances that a homeless man who sleeps regularly on the sidewalk does not have some kind of mental illness is very small. It's possible that he doesn't, but it is quite unlikely.
 
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